The Main Question Is Identity
Featured this MonthWe invite you to join the conversation on Muslim-background believers.
Can one be a Muslim and a follower of Jesus? Yale University scholar Joseph Cumming lays the foundation for the conversation in his article Muslim Followers of Jesus? Selected writers respond:
Also see more on the topic from around the web. Join in the conversation by Adding Your Response. A Response to Joseph Cumming’s ‘Muslim Followers of Jesus?’By John AzumahTo facilitate a truly global conversation, we ask Christian leaders from around the world to respond to the Global Conversation’s lead articles. These points of view do not necessarily represent Christianity Today magazine or the Lausanne Movement. They are designed to stimulate discussion from all points of the compass and from different segments of the Christian community. Please add your perspective by posting a comment so that we can learn and grow together in the unity of the Spirit. C5 believers are defined as Muslims who follow Jesus as Lord and Savior. From Cumming’s paper and more recent writings of proponents of the Insider Movement, the point is made that C5 is a divine initiative of God reaching Muslims. The Muslim-background believers (MBBs) so reached then independently and of their own free choice decide to remain within the Muslim community and to be identified officially as Muslim. The testimony of Ibrahim in Cumming’s piece makes this point clear. The main issue has been identified as identity. As an African MBB, I have always described myself as one with Muslim blood, a Catholic heart, and a Protestant head. The glue to all of these being the African DNA. I have read criticisms of C5 and felt that some of the critics come at the issue with deep-seated prejudice, disdain, and even hostility toward anything Islamic and toward Muhammad in particular. That said, I believe C5 advocates bear some responsibility for the animated and sometimes acrimonious discourse. In his earlier writings, John Travis appealed to Christians that “much of our missiological energy should be devoted to seeking a path whereby Muslims can remain Muslims, yet live as true followers of the Lord Jesus.” (See “Must All Muslims Leave Islam to Follow Jesus?” by John Travis, Evangelical Missions Quarterly, 34 (4), 1998, pp. 411–415.) Some C5ers speak of “encouraging” or “urging” MBBs to remain within the Muslim community as “Insiders.” Others have urged and even required their missionaries to officially become Muslim in order to be effective. In several articles C5ers have devoted their missiological energy to demonstrating from the Bible that leaving one’s religion of birth (“extraction”) is unbiblical, and that Jesus and the apostles were all “Insiders,” thereby suggesting that the existence of the church in its present diverse traditions (C1 to C4) is an aberration. Some critics of the movement, however, are certain that “C5 is a reflection of intentional Western missiology, Western training, and often a great deal of Western money. Mission agencies expend a great deal of effort to promote ‘Insider’ methods.” (See “Evaluating ‘Insider Movements’: C5 (Messianic Muslims)” by Bill Nikides, St Francis Magazine, No. 4, March 2006, at stfrancismagazine.info/issue4/francis4007.pdf.) Nikides goes on to talk of how money is used as inducement and other forms of pressure are applied to quarantine MBBs, in some cases against their will, in order “to prevent contamination of the movement” from the rest of the Christian community. Others with many years of ministry and research experience in Asia question claims of an “Insider Movement.” All of this has left many confused as to the truth about C5. My own take on the issues is as follows. To start with, I think Cumming is stretching the argument too far when he attempts to draw parallels between being an American and being Muslim. Believers like Ibrahim are right that: “To be a Muslim is to identify with a particular community, not only to subscribe to certain theological tenets.” In other words, to be Muslim involves a community but also includes subscribing to specific theological and religious tenets. I do not think to be American one must subscribe to any particular theological or religious tenets. Indeed, Cumming rightly states that “the prophethood of Muhammad is non-negotiably essential to Muslim identity.” Yet when the question of Muhammad is raised, C5ers think it is “unimportant.” It is true that “Muslim” means different things to different Muslims. In several communities in sub-Saharan Africa, for instance, the term “Muslim” is a specifically and exclusively religious designation. Jesus is called “Muslim” in the Qur’an as part of Islamic replacement theology. The Muslim Jesus is deliberately set in opposition to the Jesus of the New Testament. To accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, as C5ers do, automatically puts one beyond the pale of such a Muslim community. When discussing the issue with Muslim leaders, Cumming says their primary concern has been whether C5ers continue to observe the moral and ritual requirements of the madhhab they follow. One wonders what the Muslim leaders will say if they are told that these “Muslims” regard Jesus as Lord and Savior and have formed “Christ-centered fellowships in which they study the Bible, pray, and celebrate baptism and the Lord’s Supper.” The task C5ers have set themselves is like a player trying to convince fans of the New York Giants and New York Jets that he plays for both teams at the same time. Furthermore, in Islam God reveals his will not himself as in Christianity. The Qur’an contains God’s will, expanded in the Sunna, explicated into law and administered by the various madhhahib. Law is to Islam what theology is to Christianity. The question is how can someone truly follow Jesus of the New Testament and truly remain Muslim? That said, I fully endorse pleas that Christians should be mindful of the way we proceed, and avoid hurting each other. We should let God be the arbiter in such matters. However, we should not stifle the discourse with suggestions that questioning C5 amounts to “working against God.” If indeed C5 is God’s initiative, then the advocates should leave God to go about God’s business. By playing midwives, sheep dogs, and, some would say, guard dogs, of C5 believers, Western, mainly American, mission agencies could with all the best of intentions be muddying the waters in which God is fishing. John Azumah is director of the Centre for Islamic Studies and Muslim-Christian Relations at London School of Theology. He is the author of My Neighbour’s Faith: Islam Explained for Christians and The Legacy of Arab-Islam in Africa: A Quest for Inter-Religious Dialogue.
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M.K. Sheriff Daniel, India M.K. Sheriff Daniel, India - 23 July 2010, 2:39 pm "Every one therefore who shall confess me before men, him will I also confess before my Father who is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father who is in heaven." Mathew 10:32,33 The Greek Word Πᾶς {pas} means Every one. It is very clear that Jesus Himself wants His followers to acknowledge Him before men. Why should a Muslim who follows Jesus would remain Muslim in public and be denied by the Lord in Heaven? In my humble opinion, a Muslim who decides to follow Christ should be Christian. Not a Muslim. I am a MBB. I live as a Christian missionary among The Muslims.
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Frank Schiro`, USA Frank Schiro`, USA - 14 June 2010, 12:28 am In my opinion, my quick answer, Jesus said "Forbid him not: for he that is not against us, is for us." Luke 9:49 Now this is before Jesus' death and rising, before the written Gospel. Who knows who this man was that was casting out demons in Jesus name. Was he a Jew, Samaritan, Pagan? Jesus does not say, but obviously this man knew the power of, and trusted in Jesus name. Yes things can be more complicated than that, and Im not trying to be a "fuzzy lets just love and let live" type , but ..maybe I am. The Lord knows who are His.
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S D Holland, USA S D Holland, USA - 3 June 2010, 12:03 pm Matthew in the Bible Jesus " tells us I am the Way, truth and life-no one does not come to the father but by me. That is very plain in the scriptures. " " I and the Father are one" He died on the cross for everyones sins-he rose and assended unto heave. and sits at the right of the Father. We are also told that we cannot serve God and mammon (or Man). You cannot belong to to Mohammad, Budda ,or anyother false God and still say you are following Christ. There is not any way possible. Only one God-nothing in between. You are either a Christian or you are not.
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Rev. GVK Rao Isaac, India Rev. GVK Rao Isaac, India - 24 April 2010, 10:06 pm I became a Christian in 1982. According to Hinduism, I belonged to the lowest caste, of course, the untouchable. After I came to Jesus, He lead me to the truth that no one is born great nor born low; all are sinners and the origin of one and only man, Adam. Now I am happy and dedicated to serve the Lord to bring so many into the truth that make them free. I have chosen education to reach the people. Now I'm free from the wrong teachings of the wicked and happy to serve God, my father.Please pray for my ministry. Regards, Isaac
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"Moruti" Lutz, South Africa "Moruti" Lutz, South Africa - 12 April 2010, 1:48 am as to 1), that would have to be answered by Muslims themselves; as a Christian theologian I cannot speak on their behalf. The other issues, I think, goes back to some fundamental missiological discussion: can we separate "gospel" and "culture"? In other words, is there (or has there ever been) a "naked gospel", some kind of culture-free core-zone? For a very good discussion of the various possible approaches I can only recommend Stephen B Bevans' book ("Models of contextual theology")
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Alex Araujo, USA Alex Araujo, USA - 29 March 2010, 2:42 pm It might really help the conversation if we separated different issues and identified which issue we are addressing regarding Muslim evangelism. I can think of the following issues: 1. Is there saving truth in any part of the Koran and how much? 2. How much can we preserve Muslim culture while remaining faithful to the gospel? 3. How much have Western missions imposed Western culture into the gospel message? I think there is general agreement on this one at least: The gospel is not Western, and new believers must not be expected to adopt Western culture. As I read the various comments, I see these three issues mixed in, making it harder to have a clear dialogue. What do you think?
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Rev Muhammed Ibrahim, Nigeria Rev Muhammed Ibrahim, Nigeria - 15 March 2010, 4:11 am I am convinced that not one Muslim is converted by God to remain hidden. Knowingly or unknowingly, if he/she is truely converted, will make himself/herself known not only to the Christian brethren but to the whole world not mindful of the consequences. "If you deny me before men I shall also deny you before my father in Heaven" the issue is that of Spiritual majority that determines the action that follows.
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emmanuel, Nigeria emmanuel, Nigeria - 13 March 2010, 4:22 am I will like to say that if I know [then] what I know today in my level as a former Muslim. I would I will have love to remain amongst them to win them to Christ, preaching Jesus Christ to them, even from the Quiran there holy book.
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Rev. Dr. Emmanuel Uthman Olabode, Nigeria Rev. Dr. Emmanuel Uthman Olabode, Nigeria - 13 March 2010, 4:08 am I was born int o Muslim family where I received Christ in 1975. I was driven out of the family house. I was accepted into my christian cousins home, where I was mentored and nurtured in the christian faith. There is need to support a Muslim converts to be part of the family of God.
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Paul D Bramsen, USA Paul D Bramsen, USA - 7 March 2010, 5:56 pm Mazhar asks: “Shouldn't we be free to follow Christ without being forced to adopt 2,000 years of Western religious culture?” Absolutely! But there is a difference between CULTURE and RELIGION. In Muslim societies the two are so intertwined it can be difficult to distinguish that difference. But Muslims whom I have seen turn to Christ know the difference. In matters of mere culture, they continue to be who they were, but in matters of truth they stand uncompromisingly for the crucified and risen Lord Jesus Christ. They have a new Shahada and a new Ummah. And as a result, the community rejects them, at least for a time. It is the same for Jews who confess Jesus as their Messiah. Jesus said, “...‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’ He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me.” (Matthew 10:34-37). The apostle Paul put it like this: “For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor” (Galatians 2:18).
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CD, U.S.A. CD, U.S.A. - 7 March 2010, 1:13 pm Gospel of the Kingdom confronts existing cultural, religious and social systems. We can see throughout Chrisitian Mission history. From the beginning of Christian movement ( & to this day) , there were persecutions against whose who claimed to be disciples of Jesus. ( this fact/reality has not changed) -There is a limit trying to appease/accomodate existing cultural,social and religious norms.
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Hussein Hajji Wario, Kenya Hussein Hajji Wario, Kenya - 24 February 2010, 9:23 am Trevor Goforth, Canada, The Hadith proves that the Qur'an is a concoction of Prophet Muhammad. The salat (five daily prayers) are also his invention. There was no Night Journey, Isra Miraj, because the Hadith also shows he had a DREAM that took him to Jerusalem, then to the seven heavens. Most Muslims are ignorant of these facts, so apparently are some Christians. Have you, a proponent of C4 and C5 levels of contextualization, read the Zoroastrian Arda Viraf? If you haven’t, please do so and you will see for yourself what Muhammad “lifted.” It is available for free online. I am very saddened that Christian pastors, missionaries, teachers and laypeople would advocate for the teachings of Prophet Muhammad to be adopted by Christians of Muslim background. Scripture clearly shows that we cannot be both Muslim and Christian.
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Georges Houssney, Lebanese American Georges Houssney, Lebanese American - 22 February 2010, 6:09 pm The editors asked a very good question I think no one has responded to. "how far can contextualization go without violating the gospel." This question smacks of of one a new believer asked me: "How much can I sin and still be saved?" Although I know that some level of contextualization is necessary, the question should rather be: How can we make sure the gospel is preached in a way that will result in Transformation of the culture. Jesus did not come to preserve the culture, he came to change it. Missions for decades have been asking the wrong question. This is why there is so much confusion. Let us talk about transformation for a change.
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Georges Houssney, Lebanese American Georges Houssney, Lebanese American - 19 February 2010, 6:26 pm I am now in Morocco. This week a missionary told me we are not under the authority of the Bible but the Spirit of God above the Bible. Now Colby says God's authority is above the Bible. We now need someone to say: Christ's authority is above the Bible than we would have given the godhead full authority over the Bible. This thinking is shocking and terribly dangerous. How would you know God, Holy Spirit or Christ without the Bible? God revealed himself through the written word. The Bible points us to God who is the ultimate authority. PLEASE brothers and sisters lift the Word of God high. This pleases the author very much.
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"Moruti" Lutz, South Africa "Moruti" Lutz, South Africa - 18 February 2010, 11:35 pm Colby, you hit it spot on: that is exactly the question! Indeed it seems that some fellow Christians would prefere to worship the bible (instead of God). But the main issue on authority is not so surprising, if Phyllis Tickle is right in her description of how (North American) Christianity has changed (especially during times like the Great Reformation - or at present times), when she sees one of the discerning questions: "Where does (ultimate) authority reside for Christians of different persuasions?"
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Trevor Goforth, Canada Trevor Goforth, Canada - 16 February 2010, 9:07 am A Muslim Follower of Jesus by Mazhar Mallouhi I totally agree with you. Truth is not limited to just those things that we call God but God is everywhere. I recently heard it said. God is not a super hero that shows up and saves the day. We have to show up and acknowledge his presence in our lives. To limit God to a culture is to limit the power of the Holy Spirit.
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Trevor Goforth, Canada Trevor Goforth, Canada - 16 February 2010, 9:03 am While I agree in principle with most of this debate. The problem I believe arises in not how we pray etc or which community we stay apart of. It come down to Idenity. Our Idenity regarless of cultural upbringing must be that of Jesus. Rom 13: 14" Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ" When you put on clothes you do it with purpose. I was recently was walking throught the park and saw a man bowing in prayer on a carpet I assumed he was a muslim. But as I drew near I saw the bible sitting on the table. They still prayed physically the same but to Jesus not Allah. I thought it was cool. We aught not to think of ourselves better than others. God is calling us all to renewal and tranformational power. God Bless any Muslim follower of Jesus. For those that call on the name of Jesus are a new creation in heaven.
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Colby, USA Colby, USA - 16 February 2010, 8:47 am Lutz, If we're serving a living God and not a dead letter, why must things be under the authority of the Bible (instead of under the authority of God)?
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daniel hamilton, USA daniel hamilton, USA - 15 February 2010, 5:30 pm This is another corruption of "becoming all things to all people". While this would find its application in things like adopting Muslim dress, that this disallows compromise with the gospel message is clear. Rather than marginalizing the cross, Paul purposely preached it, and the well-meaning attempt by James in Acts 21 to pacify the Judaizers almost got Paul killed. That being said, it is imperative that we show Christian love to all, but with the ultimate driving purpose always being their salvation.
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Telliwel Bah, Africa Telliwel Bah, Africa - 7 February 2010, 4:51 pm Re the Conversation video:. "Is it possible to find salvation in Jesus Christ and to be faithful Muslim?" Is it possible to be a citizen under one king who is at war with another, and to betray the state secrets of the first to the second? In my country they would call that treason. In the new and improved world of missions to Muslims they call this progress. Brothers, King Jesus is at war with the "ruler of this world." Satan uses all the religions of the world to try to continue this treason against King Jesus. This includes Islam. Quit the fancy verbal footwork. Treason is treason, loyalty to one dominion is loyalty to one dominion Alone. Too bad your video is a piece to promote confusion.
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Georges Houssney, Lebanese American Georges Houssney, Lebanese American - 3 February 2010, 11:02 am Brothers and Sisters out there reaching Muslims, the Bible is God's tool, use any method as long as God's Word is exalted above any other. Only God’s Word has the power to save. The Quran maybe used to a small extent but if you are using the Quran more than the Bible, you are undermining God’s revelation and elevating Satan’s. I make limited use of the Quran and only when necessary. Many who have stopped using the Quran and switched to the Bible in evangelism have found much more fruit and lasting fruit too.
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Georges Houssney, Lebanese American Georges Houssney, Lebanese American - 3 February 2010, 11:01 am I am at a conference in the Middle East where an American Pastor of a Baptist church conducted a workshop on how to share the gospel with Muslims. He called his seminar: The Camel Method. From beginning to end, an entire hour, he shared used all Quranic verses. The only verse he used from the Bible is one that Muslims use to prove that Jesus prophesied the coming of Muhammad. At the end I asked him: Have you ever tried to use the Bible in witnessing to Muslims? What do you think his answer was? You guessed it: SHOCKING.
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Lutz, South Africa Lutz, South Africa - 30 January 2010, 11:48 am Very well said, Husssein. And I think it has to do with a western worldview that would like to squeeze the rest of the world into its mould (or "paradigm") of "what I have got black on white is what I can be sure of". Not so convincing in illiterate societies, I can tell you. Maybe it is time that we remember: we are serving a living God - not a dead letter!
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Hussein Hajji Wario, Kenya Hussein Hajji Wario, Kenya - 29 January 2010, 4:22 pm What I don't understand as a former Muslim, over 90 percent of Muslims cannot read and comprehend the meaning of the Qur'an and there are churches in the West hosting conferences so that their members can be trained on how to teach Muslims the Qur'an, especially the parts pertaining to Jesus. (No crucifixion, death or resurrection, 4:157, and 3:55[6] no death by crucifixion but possible natural death according to Ahmadiyya Qur’an, a sect hated by other Muslims.) Christians of Muslim background who have attended these conferences have dismissed this approach as ineffective. Isn't this a clue that those who know the Qur'an understand that this approach would not work as an evangelism tool? Whatever happened to sola scriptura?
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Hussein Hajji Wario, Kenya Hussein Hajji Wario, Kenya - 25 January 2010, 10:08 am Pastor Lutz, thank you for your post. We need to keep an open mind. You once wrote, "While I (as a christian theologian) clearly habe problems on agreeing about the former [theology] with my muslim brothers and sisters, the latter [spirituality] might offer more options in that respect." Bracket [ ] mine. The Gospel message transcends cultures. If you would like to discuss with me, please feel free write to me at hussein@husseinwario.com Thank you.
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"Moruti" Lutz, South Africa "Moruti" Lutz, South Africa - 25 January 2010, 5:48 am Georges, thank you for your comments. I don't tink, though, that the bible is "not adequate for our times", quite the contrary; otherwise we could just close it and put it aside - which as a moruti (="pastor") I certainly cannot do. The bible is important and we need to take it seriously. It is not to be seen as a "defect" of the bible, though, that it happens to be much older than many of the issues we would like to apply it to (be that Islam or Mormonism, gene manipulation or global warming). That just lies in the nature of things. I called for "theological... reflection" because in my experience it is a systematic way of bridging that gap (in other words: of applying the bible to "our times"); and that is hard work [a PhD is of course, not required - but at times it helps!] "I believe that the bible was given to us as an inspiration: to open our minds, not to close them."
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anonymous, Global anonymous, Global - 24 January 2010, 12:17 am The website that I was referring to is http://biblicalmissiology.org.
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anonymous, Global anonymous, Global - 24 January 2010, 12:15 am A friend e-mailed me Joseph Cumming's article, "Muslim Followers of Jesus", and after reading the article and some of the comments, I was so edified by Mr. Houssney's comments,that I wanted to check out the website. My father is a West African muslim and I am a Christian. I've spoken to him about my faith, wrote heartfelt letters and sent him teachings about Christ. I am praying that the Lord will soon reveal Himself to my dad. In the meantime, I would love to stay abreast of conferences/teaching seminars so that I can be equipped to share the Gospel with him. Thanks for this website, it is truly a gem.
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Telliwel Bah, Africa Telliwel Bah, Africa - 23 January 2010, 3:49 pm Part 2 of Ryle quote: ..... There is a quantity of half-truth taught by the modern false teachers: they are incessantly using Scriptural terms and phrases in an unscriptural sense. There is a silly readiness in every direction to believe everybody who talks cleverly, lovingly, and earnestly, and a determination to forget that Satan is often ‘transformed into an angel of light.’ (2 Corinthians 2:14) There is a wide-spread 'gullibility' among professing Christians: every heretic who tells his story plausibly is sure to be believed, and everybody who doubts him is called a persecutor and a narrow-minded man. JC Ryle, (1816-1900.) “A Warning to the Churches”
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Telliwel Bah, Africa Telliwel Bah, Africa - 23 January 2010, 3:46 pm If I may add an old and timeless quote to the conversation: Part 1 "Many things combine to make the present inroad of false doctrine peculiarly,dangerous. There is an undeniable zeal in some of the teachers of error: their'earnestness' makes many think they must be right. There is a great appearance of learning… many fancy that such clever and intellectual men must surely be safe guides. ….many like to prove their independence of judgment, by believing novelties. There is a wide-spread desire to appear charitable and liberal-minded….
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Georges Houssney, Lebanese American Georges Houssney, Lebanese American - 23 January 2010, 1:44 am Moruti, how sad to hear from you that the Bible is not adequate for our times. You are not alone in this and this is what I am exposing. So the Bible was good enough for 6 centuries. Let us then go ahead and admit that the Quran replaced it. Isn't this what Muslim scholars believe anyway? I know basically what you mean that there is no specific teachings that address Islam in specific. But the Bible does not address Mormons specifically either. Let me assure you that the Bible does address Islam and Mormons very directly. Jesus and Paul warned against false prophets and spelled out exactly what constitutes falsehood, idolatry and commanded us to be alert and to test the spirits. Does it take a Phd in theology to know that Muhammad and Joseph Smith are false prophets?
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Hussein Hajji Wario, Kenya Hussein Hajji Wario, Kenya - 21 January 2010, 8:56 am Kevin & BJ, I am familiar with Georges's ministry, have met the man many years ago. I can emphatically say his concerns about IM are genuine. He even provided his personal email address a few weeks ago for BJ to have a dialogue with him. There is no need to put each other down. A house divided... We are all in it to further the Gospel. BJ, please, write Georges if you haven't done so already. As for me, I am now convinced from reading articles written by pro-insiders that the infallibility of and fidelity to God's Word are at stake. I have been a follower of Jesus (Christian) for almost 21 years and I have not heard a single MBB who espouses IM's views on how to live the NEW LIFE in Christ. It is getting clearer to me that all IM advocates are either westerners who at times use pseudo-names to sound like MBBs, or Muslims who would like to follow the Jesus of Islam and Prophet Muhammad.
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Moruti Lutz, South Africa Moruti Lutz, South Africa - 21 January 2010, 3:56 am Hardly anyone can doubt that the bible is an important source for us as Christians and especially so when it comes to formulating a valid "missiology". But we should keep in mind that it was written, compiled and canonized many centuries before Islam ever began! So trying to deduce a "biblical missiology" - straight from the bible as it were - and applicable to the "Muslim world" (in the 21st century!) seems problematic. It will, at least require further theological and missiological reflection (e.g. concerning the issue of "insider" believers etc). And that's what this forum is for...
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Geoges Houssney, Lebanese American Geoges Houssney, Lebanese American - 21 January 2010, 12:59 am OK I will take the challenge of not criticizing but rather presenting the true biblical missiology. Visit my site and I promise you there will be positive and helpful articles as to how to evangelize, disciple and plant churches in M World. Jesus has already provide for us an example to follow. Paul has implemented the Master's plan. I invite us all to visit the gospels and Acts afresh and find not verses here and there that support our views but the normative style of Jesus and Paul. This is what I normally teach and promote when I am not being provoked. Biblicalmissiology.org and engagingislam.org.
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Georges Houssney, Lebanese American Georges Houssney, Lebanese American - 20 January 2010, 10:47 pm BJ and Kevin, read your own words of accusations. I will not respond to personal attack. Go back and read what I have written. I am addressing real issues, using scriptures and you want to attack me as a person. Fine.. I can take it. I have been silent for too long and my constituency which is quite large is pressuring me to respond. Stick to the issues.What would you say to Jesus who said to the Jewish leaders: Your father is the devil? John 8:44. What would you say about Jesus who attacked the Pharisees (the most knowledgeable) vehemently? And what about Paul and his sharp attack of the false teachers and prophets? Who are the false prophets now BJ? Am I one of them; Calling people to a profound repentance and returning to the simple and powerful gospel? Are you sure I am a bad missionary? What do you know about my ministry and its worldwide impact? I pray that God would forgive you. I do.
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Kevin, USA Kevin, USA - 20 January 2010, 7:11 pm I am very grateful for BJ's last post. Though he admits he is not a pro-insider defender, I appreciate BJ's desire to understand first before blasting. I have followed this CT conversation off and on. I am certainly in the insider advocate group. But I also very much appreciate critiques and questions that come from brothers and sisters who take the time to truly seek to understand what insider advocates are trying to say. The posts following this CT edition have been, though not exclusively, yet all too frequently laced with distortions, mis-representations, false accusations, sarcastic put downs, and "straw man" arguments. It is very sad to see the Body of Christ display such a spirit. And it makes me have to ask myself exactly what spirit it really is. Thank you BJ for being one of those who has tried a "better way". Prayerfully. Kevin Higgins
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BJ (Final post - bored), Norway BJ (Final post - bored), Norway - 20 January 2010, 12:58 am Georges maybe you misunderstand my purpose in posting. Im not an avid IM supporter; I am just critiquing YOUR many posts. You have multiple websites, bloggs & posts set up to attack an IM caricature nothing like that which Joseph has carefully described & I dont think its fair to try and hijack the conversation over to a blogg where you have complete control. Theres all kinds of accusations on your blogg: unbiblical, false teachers, liars etc & I just wanted to point out your arguments are also weak. As you see its easier to critique than defend. I think your main problem is your failure to reach an empathetic understanding of how your brothers in IM use these basic terms: culture, religion & identity. They are the hardest most slippery concepts theologians, and sociologists etc grapple with these days. Your gut-level intuition is probably wrong. Missions 101: Learn the language then communicate. A bad missionary wants everyone to speak HIS language use HIS terms.
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Georges Houssney, Lebanese American Georges Houssney, Lebanese American - 20 January 2010, 12:28 am Part 3. The real issue my friend is identifying with Christ. If a "Christian" denies Christ publicly he is not better than a Muslim not willing to associate with Christ publicly. Both will be disowned by Jesus in his Glory. (Mark 8:38). What do you mean "M. East tribal thinking?" So your western thinking is more civilized? I don't get you. Let me say it in a final way: you are dragging me down to the most shallow discussion I think I have ever had about this issue. Just because you jump from one thing to the other in a desperate attempt to appear scholarly. I tell you that the majority of the writings of IMers reveals pseudo scholarship. It appears knowledgeable but it is merely ignorance. Ignorance of Islam, culture, Christology, Ecclesiology, church history and what God is really doing in the Muslim world. I just wish I could be kinder. But false teaching needs to be exposed at any cost. John 2:17.
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Georges Houssney, Lebanese American Georges Houssney, Lebanese American - 20 January 2010, 12:09 am Part 2. The Bible says that the Disciples began to be called Christians in Antioch. This implies that they continued to be called Christians and in case you did not notice, the Christian identity is still with us and if you do not have your way, it will be until Christ returns. Another later identity to the 11 disciples was "apostles." This came later, so is it also nonessential? Perhaps we need to change that identity too and call the Apostles Sahaba. Already Rich Brown suggested Jesus be called the Caliph of God. Hey, why don't you go all the way and convert to Islam. But what are you anyway? Are you a Muslim a Christian?
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Georges Houssney, Lebanese American Georges Houssney, Lebanese American - 20 January 2010, 12:00 am Part 1. I do not want to engage just BJ on this forum but knowing that many read these posts let me respond. I don't know you personally, so I cannot say say that you don't know what you are talking about. But I can assure you that you are not getting my point. Usually it is the fault of the communicator if the message is not clear. But at least Hussein and others seem to understand what I am talking about. BJ hear yourself: "The bible clearly shows that this nickname came later on at Antioch. Therefore: NOT ESSENTIAL" Do YOU know what you are talking about? The name Christian is non essential because it came later? What logic is that? How about Pentecost coming later than the resurrection? is that non essential? It is silly to even as these questions.
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BJ, Norway BJ, Norway - 19 January 2010, 12:40 pm Georges writes: “Insiders do not … understand the clash of kingdoms, light Vs darkness… keeping the Muslim identity is promoting the Kingdom of the enemy.” and earlier: “You know well that there are many Arabs who convert to Islam. They gain a new identity: Islam. So you want Muslim Arabs who receive Christ to remain Muslim? Do you know what you are talking about?” Although I think we are getting a lot closer here to the real issues for you Georges, I just don’t think this M.Eastern tribal thinking is “biblical”. I am STILL utterly baffled as to why you want to add “Thou shalt call thyself Christian” to the simple Gospel message. It is so NOT “biblical missiology” it is ludicrous. The bible clearly shows that this nickname came later on at Antioch. Therefore: NOT ESSENTIAL
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BJ, Norway BJ, Norway - 19 January 2010, 12:13 pm Hussein, Lewis Rambo (1993) writes about several “types” of conversion: tradition transition, institutional transition, affiliation, intensification within a tradition, & apostasy. He also suggests Anthony Wallace’s (2003) theory of cultural revitalisation “is central to an understanding of cultural aspects in the context of conversion”. I’m not making a general rule against “apostasy” (ie. total radical discontinuity of ones life narrative that normally includes exile). I’m just concerned that Georges wants to make a general rule FOR apostasy. Conversion happens in different ways for different people. Problem is we want everyone to have “our” experience. Several of my friends have no wish to live in exile. That is not for fear of persecution. In many ways it harder to stay. They ARE still persecuted. However because they want to win their people they fight to stay IN instead of fighting for their “rights” (a non-biblical western concept which usually ends in exile)
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Hussein Hajji Wario, Kenya Hussein Hajji Wario, Kenya - 19 January 2010, 11:06 am Georges, I am an MBB and I agree with your sentiment. Insider Movement proponents and experts do not represent MBBs' interest. If they did, they would have consulted widely before running away with their C-sprectrum, which if left unchecked, its detrimental effects in outreach to Muslims will be felt for many years.
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Georges Houssney, Lebanese American Georges Houssney, Lebanese American - 19 January 2010, 12:34 am Do you think God has any enemies? The Bible is filled with references to God's enemies. Insiders do not understand the concept of the Church as a separate nation composed of many nations. Nor do they understand the clash of kingdoms, light Vs darkness. Islam is a system that is set out to destroy God's Kingdom. Not every Muslim of course is aware of that or agrees with their leaders on this matter. However, keeping the Muslim identity is promoting the Kingdom of the enemy. It baffles my mind that Western "Experts" insist on their thinking when a host of converts are offended by even the notion that they retain their Islamic identity. I work with converts from many nations. None of them even think about losing their ethnic identity, but everyone wants to leave the Islamic identity. Amazingly they are offended by the very people who design strategies to avoid offense. Crazy, hey?
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Hussein Hajji Wario, Kenya Hussein Hajji Wario, Kenya - 18 January 2010, 4:06 pm BJ, you have a point. Most countries where Muslims are the majority, like Malaysia, issue birth certificate which identify the baby's (parents) religion. However, I doubt this is done to show "something external; that is, the baby’s cultural, ethnic and tribal belonging," but to make it impossible-news from these countries have shown-for one born to Muslim parents to change his or her religion.
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BJ, Norway BJ, Norway - 18 January 2010, 6:31 am In most Middle Eastern countries, a baby’s “religion” (either “Christian” or “Muslim”) is written upon its birth-certificate shortly after birth. Therefore, these signifiers primarily denote something external; that is, the baby’s cultural, ethnic and tribal belonging. What appalling ethnocentrism to regard anyone with "Muslim" written on their birth certificate as "Gods enemy" by default. Sounds like a recipe for genocide.
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Georges Houssney, Lebanese American Georges Houssney, Lebanese American - 17 January 2010, 11:41 pm "For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility....His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace." (Ephesians 2:14,15) "I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd." (John 10:16) Jesus brings people who are separated by whatever and unites them in his body. What a glorious church it is that boldly declares the name of Christ and takes no other name, especially not that name of God's enemy.
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Georges Houssney, Lebanese American Georges Houssney, Lebanese American - 17 January 2010, 11:30 pm Anyone who promotes the idea that a Muslim can accept Christ and remain a Muslim is confusing culture with religion. What unites a Lebanese Christian with an Indian, Chinese, Pakistani, American, Brazilian etc. is not culture. All these people are diverse culturally but united in their Christian identity. Same goes for Muslims from many ethnic groups. They have dual identities: cultural and religious. The to call a believer in Christ Muslim is to detach him from his worldwide community and to throw him into an identity crisis. I know many who have suffered this dichotomy. It is strange to accuse me of promoting western-modern dichotomy between sacred and secular. What I am advocating is unity of faith in Christ across cultures just as Muslims are united across cultures by Islam. There has to be a break away with Islam and incorporating the Christian faith into the convert's ethnic culture.
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Robert Hunt, United States Robert Hunt, United States - 15 January 2010, 9:57 pm Thank you for a very useful and concise comment on the debate. It is not for any of us to decide who is and is not a Christian, proper or otherwise. Nor can we create a strategy out of a situation that has grown up organically under the influence of the Spirit. Indeed I would add that the U.S. evangelical obsession with strategy is a feature of a particularly American context and may say more about American Evangelicals than it says about either scripture or mission.
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BJ, Norway BJ, Norway - 15 January 2010, 2:10 am Georges your confidence that one can & should separate “religion” & “culture” concerns me. It seems linked to Modernity’s sacred-secular dichotomy: Set in opposition to “science”(which deals with the natural world, objective facts & rational knowledge) “religion” was invented by the West as a catch-all term for all that seems super-natural, subjective belief & ultimately “irrational”. If there is no obvious rational explanation for something bizarre we call it “religion”. Thus “religion” seems to be a product of western self-understanding when it gazes into other cultures & sees its own reflection. We need to be careful using “religion” that we dont impose artificial dichotomies of Modernity onto cultures where no sharp border or “excluded middle” exists. Demands for converts give up EVERYTHING related to their “religious identity” need to be evaluated carefully. Those overly confident they can divide identity in such a way may merely be missionaries of secularism.
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BJ, Norway BJ, Norway - 15 January 2010, 1:34 am Georges. We are less far from each other than you think (I think!) but it would help if you read my posts before replying. Nowhere have I criticised your use of ethnic identity. So no need for another condescending lecture about ethnic groups - we are in agreement ;o) Also, you won’t find any place I have treated Islam as monolithic either. Quite the opposite, I feel YOU are making general rules (eg: EVERYONE has to call themselves Maseehi and NO-ONE can stay Muslim) and that is what I object to. My point was merely this: When you say “Assyrians do not have to change the Christian identity naturally because they have it to start with. The identity does not save them, it is their faith in Christ that does.” This automatically means that the name “Christian” is not an essential part of the Gospel. Since you prove it is possible to enter the kingdom with no change of “religious identity” (whatever that is) we should not make general rules about this aspect of identity.
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Georges Houssney, Lebanese American Georges Houssney, Lebanese American - 14 January 2010, 6:45 pm Part 2. You criticized my classifying Kurds and Assyrians by their ethnic identity. Many ethnic groups would be offended by your denial of their heritage. Kurds, Berbers, Tatars etc, were there before Islam. The Islamic system would like to assimilate and absorb ethnic group. The Turks did not succeed in abolishing the Kurdish identity. And I am sure you know that there are at least 3 million Kurds who are not Muslim? Yazidi Kurds would be very offended if you call them Muslim. Yet they share with the Muslim and Christian Kurds one cultural identity and it is not Islam. A Muslim Kurd and a Yazidi Kurd accepting Christ will remain Kurds but not keep their Muslim and Yazidi identities. Assyrians do not have to change the Christian identity naturally because they have it to start with. The identity does not save them, it is their faith in Christ that does. Jesus said that he has other sheep not of this fold, they must become one flock and one shepherd.
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Georges Houssney, Lebanese American Georges Houssney, Lebanese American - 14 January 2010, 6:27 pm Part 1. Dear BJ, you sure are making it more difficult to respond to you. You are so far far from where I am, I feel it is futile to argue with you. You keep bringing all sorts of things and ignoring the fundamental truth that Islam is is not a monolithic culture. When my fellow Lebanese Dr. Sabra speaks of the meshing of culture and religion, it does not prove your point. He is painting with a broad brush. Isn't culture and religion meshed in the West as well? The Pulpit often speaks against this phenomenon, now you are endorsing it? In my extensive research and writing about culture, I see that the glue between culture and religion are part of the problem not the solution.
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Carol Ghattas, USA Carol Ghattas, USA - 14 January 2010, 1:11 pm I have not been keeping up daily with this conversation, but in looking through the comments today, I realized I was address by Hussein Wario on Jan. 7, so felt I needed to respond. In our book and our approaches, we do not seek to "give the Qur'an legitimacy" but to do as the Apostle Paul did when speaking to the people of Athens (Acts 17:16-34). He talked to them about something they understood and then built a bridge to the Gospel. In using the Qur'an, we start with something most Muslims are aware of--a story or verse or idea from their book and then use it as a bridge to share the Truth of Christ. We do not stay in the Qur'an but move to the Bible and areas of witness. So, we are not disputing what you say about the book, but recognize that for a Muslim it is holy scripture and truth in his eyes, so we do not want to demean it but use it to move toward Truth (Christ). I hope this clarifies our approach.
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Allister, USA Allister, USA - 14 January 2010, 10:01 am I can't believe this conversation is still going. This discussion seems to be running in circles. Irregardless of where one fits on the C scale- two questions help one see if a worker is still reading the Bible. 1) Do they do what Jesus says and Baptize in the name of Jesus? 2) Can somebody say the shihadi and other creeds which put Muhammad higher that Jesus Christ and follow Jesus? The labels BMB MBB CBB , C4, C5, C6, C7 are highly subjective and allow some to hide there real views and practices.
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Moruti Lutz, South Africa Moruti Lutz, South Africa - 14 January 2010, 12:30 am For all it's worth, may I suggest that maybe, instead of creating scales that serve to exclude those, who live their faith in a way different from us, should we not concentrate in our theologising on an approach that asks: what can we learn from each other? [personally, for example I have been able, as a Christian, to learn from Muslims: from the way they take prayer seriosly in salat (show me a Christian who is as faithful in saying his / her prayers as many a muslim!); the concept of "din": faith not just being one compartment of our life, but a way of life that covers every area of our existence.) Maybe, in this dicussion it can be useful to make a difference between "theology" (the content of e.g. christian or muslim faith) and "spirituality" (the way we live it out). While I (as a christian theologian) clearly habe problems on agreeing about the former with my muslim brothers and sisters, the latter might offer more options in that respect.
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Moruti Lutz, South Africa Moruti Lutz, South Africa - 14 January 2010, 12:29 am Concerning the topic I have little to contribute (no personal experience with c4/c5, or (xe)muslim believers in Christ). I do, however experience questions and issues of similar nature: as a European living in Africa I know about the huge issues around the gospel vs culture question. And of course there is just as broad a range of responses for example about the compatibility of following Jesus and venerating ancestors (badimo) - some churches here are very European, some very African, some syncretist etc. And I have discovered that African Theology has been able to come up with some interesting and constructive contributions (see eg. Robert Schreiter (ed), "Faces of Jesus in Africa").
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Moruti Lutz, South Africa Moruti Lutz, South Africa - 14 January 2010, 12:29 am When I started reading this blog I was at first a bit surprised about the vehemence of the debate. But then I started thinking: what does this remind me of... and I concluded: of Acts 15. If you read that chapter, you can feel the density of debate among the leaders of the first church about one huge question: should new believers ("from the nations") be required to become Jews (i.e. keep laws of circumsition or food laws) - or not? Maybe in a different terminology (nothing about c-scales), it does remind me a lot of this current discussion. Eventually the apostels managed to come up with a compromise; otherwise the disunity in the body of Christ would already have started there and then...
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Hussein Hajji Wario, Kenya Hussein Hajji Wario, Kenya - 12 January 2010, 11:30 am For those of you who advocate for us Muslim Background Believers to use “Allah” in reference to God, what do you think of the current events in Malaysia? The New York Times reports that Muslims in Malaysia have vandalized nine church buildings over the Christians’ use of “Allah.” “‘Allah’ is the common term for God in Malay-language Bibles, but the government and many Muslim groups insist that the word should be reserved for use in Islam.” If this Islamic government has reserved “Allah” for Muslims’ use only, who are you as western Christians to advocate for its use by us when the same setback is bound to happen in a predominantly Muslim country someday?
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BJ, Norway BJ, Norway - 12 January 2010, 5:03 am Since I do not know what I am talking about maybe you will listen to one of your own country-men: Heres a quote from a Lebanese Christian who lives in the Middle East: Dr George Sabra, Academic Dean and Associate Professor of Systematic Theology, Near East School of Theology, Beirut, “An interdenominational Protestant theological seminary serving the Evangelical churches of the Middle East”. From: “Two Ways of Being a Christian in the Muslim Context of the Middle East”, Islam and Christian–Muslim Relations, Vol. 17, No. 1, 43–53, January 2006. In the Middle East “religious identity” and “cultural identity” are inseparable.
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BJ, Norway BJ, Norway - 12 January 2010, 5:02 am “[Anyone] familiar with the Middle East realizes that the designation ‘Christian’ there does not only refer to a self-aware believer in Jesus Christ & a committed participant in a living ecclesial tradition. ‘Christian’ in the Middle East refers to anyone & everyone who is baptized [ie. christened as a baby] & belongs to a Christian family, & thus also to a Christian community (ta’ifa)… this is the self-understanding of all those who are baptized & who belong to families that have been Christian for many centuries. Moreover,…it is the sense in which the larger Islamic majority understands all those in the region who are neither Muslims nor Jews. In other words, all those who have been baptized in the name of the Triune God, whether they like it or not, whether they believe what their church believes or not, whether they practise their Christianity or not, are regarded & treated by the larger Islamic majority as ‘Christians’”
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BJ, Norway BJ, Norway - 12 January 2010, 4:53 am I think you side-stepped my two points: (1) I think it is a little naïve to ignore the link between Kurdish & Berber nationalism and their desire to change “religious identity”. I’m NOT insisting they stay Muslim at all. I have plenty of Christian Kurdish friends. But, I DO think Christ followers should be free to describe their identity as they feel appropriate. So I’m concerned you seem to want to make a GENERAL principle out of your Kurdish experience (& ignore political aspects) and apply it to ALL (some of whom DO identify more closely to their Muslim heritage and culture, of which, much is good and Biblical). This is the very thing you accuse IM of. (2) I also found your use of “Nestorian” instead of “Christian” a humorous choice of words, since the story actually proves that the word “Christian” is also CULTURE in the ME: It shows an Assyrian can gain “a new identity in Christ” without any change whatsoever to their “religious identity”.
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Georges Houssney, Lebanese American Georges Houssney, Lebanese American - 12 January 2010, 2:14 am You asked why can't Arab Muslims retain their identity. WOW! I am impressed! Now you see that there are two identities: Arab and Muslim, one ethnic one religious. When an Arab from a Christian background converts to Islam, do they still call him an Arab Christian? Certainly not. You know well that there are many Arabs who convert to Islam. They gain a new identity: Islam. So you want Muslim Arabs who receive Christ to remain Muslim? Do you know what you are talking about? I guess not. No one is asking an Arab to be a non Arab. It is not even possible. But someone who accepts Christ has to identify with Christ's bod and join the community of the Messiah: Massihi. Anything else is a betrayal of Christ and his NAME.
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Georges Houssney, Lebanese American Georges Houssney, Lebanese American - 12 January 2010, 2:03 am BJ, you seem to know what I did more than I do. I meant what I said. It is Kurdish culture and Assyrian culture I was referring to, not Islamic or Christian. Are you unaware of the difference between Islam and ethnic cultures? Kurds, Berbers, Circassians,Tatars, Kazakhs etc were there before Islam. Islam introduced something but did not wipe out their distinctiveness. Why are you insisting that they were Muslim when my point is just the opposite. But you are so stuck on Islam as a culture. Did you read what I wrote about Islam not being a culture? This is one of the biggest errors of IMers.
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BJ, Norway BJ, Norway - 11 January 2010, 10:00 am “I never expected a Kurd to renounce his Kurdish identity nor the Assyrian his. They kept their cultural identities but renounced their religious identity. One was Muslim the other Nestorian” This is a bit of a cheeky example, Georges. To be consistent you should have said: “One was Muslim the other Christian”. Why have you suddenly stopped using the word “Christian”? We both know that if I asked one of your Assyian friends if they had converted and become a “Christian” they would reply “No, we became believers”. Their religious identity is and was “Christian”. It was inherited and it never changed at their conversion. (My Assyrian friends even claim to speak “Christian”!) Thus, if Assyrian Christians can gain “a new identity in Christ” without any change at all to their “religious identity”, why can’t Arab Muslims?
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BJ, Norway BJ, Norway - 11 January 2010, 1:31 am Yes, that strategy works well with those fleeing the Islamic empire. Berbers, Iranians, Kurds etc. have not had good experiences and naturally are very open to switch sides to the Western Secular empire by joining its Evangelical insider movement. In many ways the Islamic empire is a failing empire, so who wouldn't? Well, how about Pakistani background in Norway, Somalis, many Arab Muslims whose cultural identities are deeply intertwined with their empire – failed or not. You won’t catch many of those darkening the door of a church or renouncing their empire. Your anecdote proves my earlier point. The only worldview that separates “religion” and “culture” is the western secular worldview. So all you did was convert them to Western Secularism and they became insiders of that empire instead of the Islamic empire... No problem, but zero chance of impacting the Islamic world.
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Georges Hosusney, Lebanese American Georges Hosusney, Lebanese American - 10 January 2010, 11:51 am In Iraq I worked closely with Kurds and Assyrians. Initially the first church we planted was mixed. Later on due to the clear distinctive traits of each we agreed to separate the groups so they feel more "insiders" to their own ethnic group. Language was a major factor in this decision. I never expected a Kurd to renounce his Kurdish identity nor the Assyrian his. They kept their cultural identities but renounced their religious identity. One was Muslim the other Nestorian. They gained a new identity in Christ and his people within the nation and worldwide. This is what the church is: Called out of the kingdom of darkness into the bright light of the kingdom of Christ. (col 1:12-13) Do not confuse Islam with the subcultures of Muslim nations.
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Georges Hosusney, Lebanese American Georges Hosusney, Lebanese American - 10 January 2010, 11:50 am Part 1: Insider-Outsider, what do these words really mean? Everyone is an insider. IM naively views Islamic culture as monolithic. There are numerous subcultures in the 56 Muslim nations. Shites do not mix well with Sunnis and mosques are segretated. Islam is not a culture. It is a religio-political system. Cultures vary within each Muslim country.
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Georges Hosusney, Lebanese American Georges Hosusney, Lebanese American - 10 January 2010, 11:47 am Three times my comments were not posted. Read what I wrote here: http://biblicalmissiology.org
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Ura Montal, USA Ura Montal, USA - 8 January 2010, 11:09 am How can one worship Jesus as God and be a Muslim? How can one not worship Jesus as God and be a Christian?
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BJ, Norway BJ, Norway - 7 January 2010, 4:23 pm Telliwel. Acts 17:27-28 “God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. `For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, `We are his offspring.' “ I CANT QUITE SEE how Paul is showing them here how “misguided” they are. He quotes both Epimenides who ordered altars made to the “unknown god” in 600BC, and also a poem of praise and worship by Aratus to the god Zeus: “In every direction we all have to do with Zeus; For we are his offspring” I think Paul seems rather to be AGREEING with the (general revelation) truth they do have and using that to share the Gospel. Paul even calls Epimenides a prophet later on in Titus 1:12 as you know. Quite a bit of Epimenides poem has become “God’s Word” it seems ;o)
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Hussein Hajji Wario, Kenya Hussein Hajji Wario, Kenya - 7 January 2010, 4:22 pm BJ, not all opponents of IM misunderstand who a Muslim is. Your quote from the Qur’an and the ensuing commentary don’t tell the whole story. [T]he grade of believer” that the commentary refers to is DARAJAT. There are three of them. Mu’min is just one of them and it is not even the highest. Muslims who advocate for war against the West and the extermination of infidels belong to the highest darajat (Qur’an, 49:15). IM cannot be “an external culture” because it (C4 and C5) embodies the teachings of Prophet Muhammad. It is an invention of egomaniac “Christian” scholars that the body of Christ (church universal) should jettison.
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BJ, Norway BJ, Norway - 7 January 2010, 3:25 pm A distinction between INTERNAL faith and EXTERNAL culture has been within Islam since its beginning. eg, the Qur’an clearly contrasts islam [submission to an empire] and iman [faith] here: "The desert Arabs say, ‘We believe.’ Say to them, ‘You do not believe; you should rather say, ‘We have become Muslims [lit. we submitted]’, for faith has not yet entered your hearts…’"(49:14). Ibn Kathirs commentary says, “the Prophet made a distinction between the grade of believer [mu’min] & the grade of Muslim, indicating that Iman [faith] is a more exclusive grade than Islam.” Its always been possible to be part of the Islamic Empire & yet not believe/practice everything Islamic Orthodoxy demands. Watching the arguments, my impression is that IM and Anti-IM people totally misunderstand each other: for IM Islam is an external culture & for Anti-IM Islam is an internal worldview. Georges habibi, you cant argue with IM before you both agree on the meanings for the words you use!
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Telliwel Bah, Africa Telliwel Bah, Africa - 7 January 2010, 3:16 pm Thank you Wario for your comment re the Qur'an and building bridges. It seems important to distinguish communication bridges--as Paul did in Acts 17 with the Athenians, and philosophical bridges, which Paul categorically refused to do in the same passage. He actually used communication bridges to strike a common chord with the "men of Athens", but used their own culture to show just how misguided they were. This is what some call presuppositional apologetics, and it has a lot of advantages, also in being an ambassador of Christ to Muslims. Unfortunately some of bridge building is more about being nice and looking nice, than being a fellow human and yet "taking every thought captive which is disobedient to Christ."
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Biblical Missiology Biblical Missiology - 7 January 2010, 11:50 am New blog post: What is wrong with the Insider Movement? http://biblicalmissiology.org
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Hussein Hajji Wario, Kenya Hussein Hajji Wario, Kenya - 7 January 2010, 10:45 am Gavriel, there is nothing wrong with an MBB living within his or her Muslim community after becoming a follower of Christ. However, there is a major problem when the same—for fear of persecution—claims to be a Christian and a Muslim, going to the mosque to observe the five daily prayers (salat) and have allegiance to Prophet Muhammad and the Qur’an. Hadith shows salat was invented because Jews and Christians had their own prayers. Muslims used to observe Jewish prayers. Islamic theology is antithetical to that of Christianity, therefore, one cannot claim allegiance to both. Mrs. Carol Ghattas, it is impossible to use “what the Qur’an means…” to witness to a Muslim about the Jesus of the Bible. First, the Qur’an’s account is contradictory to that of the Bible. Secondly, your overture would give legitimacy to the Qur’an, a book that even the Hadith shows was a concoction of Prophet Muhammad. Uninspired.
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Carol Ghattas, USA Carol Ghattas, USA - 7 January 2010, 9:47 am Someone asked to know more about the Qur'an and how it differs from what Christians believe. I would like to recommend the new book that my husband, Dr. Raouf Ghattas and I wrote: A Christian Guide to the Qur'an: Building Bridges in Muslim Evangelism. (Kregel, 2009). In this, we go through the Qur'an sura by sura looking at similarities and differences to help Christians build bridges in witnessing to Muslim friends. It will help you to understand what the Qur'an means and how we can use what Muslims understand to then share from the Bible and our faith in witness.
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BJ, Norway BJ, Norway - 7 January 2010, 5:37 am Vidar, maybe your comments are deleted because they are more based on emotional gut reactions than reality. I am SO glad my children were born and raised in a Muslim country and have had Muslim friends. There is much evil ideology/religion/culture in Norway too. It is just that we are ”frogs in the pot” and so don’t notice what we are soaking in. Perhaps that’s why God is bringing Muslims into Norway. Perhaps we NEED more God-fearing people whose values for family, morality, and respect for God are more Biblical than most Norwegians and even many church fellowships. There are many many good things to be learnt from Muslims. Maybe your god is too small? I can’t imagine the loving God of the universe not reaching out to so large a civilization for 1500 years. Yes Satan’s fingerprints are there (as they are in Norway too), but if one WANTS to see, the HS has also been just as busy – perhaps even more?
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Vidar, Norway Vidar, Norway - 6 January 2010, 9:06 pm To BJ Norway; My comments was not NEAR 9000 words, and I never use "inflammatory language"... But I pinpoint that Muhammed was no prophet from GOD, and that the whole ideologi/religion of islam is EVIL! Sometimes the truth doesn't taste like honey. And sometimes what looks like a debate, is totally controlled and directed by the forum-owner. This comment will also probably be deleted,like the one you jsut answered... Sorry to say, but "Christianity today" has totally lost it's credibility...
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Gavriel, Israel Gavriel, Israel - 6 January 2010, 3:34 pm Being an insider is a harder calling and a higher calling, not an easier one and not a compromise. Insiders sometimes feel that those who leave and convert to Christianity are the ones compromising by escaping the call to be conformed to the image of Christ as those who would once again put flesh and bone to His life and message in the midst of a community that does not yet know Him. We perceive our insider lives as being more radically devoted to Him. We remain inside the non-Christian community of our people not in order to maintain or to gain acceptance for ourselves, but rather to express acceptance to our people, that Jesus accepts them right where they are.
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ARAFAT LARTEY, GHANA ARAFAT LARTEY, GHANA - 6 January 2010, 11:57 am want to know more about the HOLY QUR'AN and how it differ from that of the christians believe.Any other vital information can be added to it
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BJ, Norway BJ, Norway - 6 January 2010, 10:05 am Try avoiding needlessly inflammatory language and keep it under 900 letters ;o)
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BJ, Norway BJ, Norway - 6 January 2010, 4:04 am A interesting article on culture recommended by monergism.com (not that I'm a Monerg) is Christianity and Culture by John M. Frame (pdf) http://www.monergism.com/directory/search.php?action=search_links_ simple&search_kind=and&phrase=culture Based on Niebuhrs work, it describes some of the different Biblical views of culture that have been proposed throughout history. p11 & p16 have a discussion of the different anti-culture theologies which have often been expressed in this conversation. p20 discusses a biblical theology for "transforming culture". Hope this is helpful. What do you think Mark?
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Hussein Hajji Wario, Kenya Hussein Hajji Wario, Kenya - 4 January 2010, 11:19 am Mark, you are right on. Thank you for the word. The time for believers in Christ (church universal) to examine themselves has come. In the December issue of CT, preceding this article on page 30, Pew survey found that 35% of evangelicals in the USA believe that Islam "can lead to eternal life." What a staggering number! I wonder how many of them are advocates of contextualization. What do C4 and C5 scholars think about this trend? Could it be that their theology is partly to blame? Thank you, Dr. Cumming, for bringing to light this spiritual carnage (C5). This is a wake-up call for the church. As an MBB, I can emphatically say that there is not even a vestige of truth in Islam. Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life. For more, you can read my autobiography, Cracks in the Crescent, online.
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Mark Stephan Mark Stephan - 4 January 2010, 12:04 am Is this the US Church? Revelation 3:1-6 "And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: 'The words of him who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. "I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'
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Mark Stephan Mark Stephan - 3 January 2010, 5:41 pm Telliwel, all I can say is bravo. You are right. Please keep spreading the word of God-Centeredness!
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Telliwel Bah, Africa Telliwel Bah, Africa - 3 January 2010, 2:49 pm Re Hussein's question: "Why are we changing the rules of the game? " May I suggest listening to the audio series by David WElls, called "The Disappearnace of Theology" on the Monergism site below. Also reading a synopsis of Wil Metzger's "Tell the Truth" http://www.the-highway.com/2views_Metzger.html which shows two views of the Gospel, a man-centered one or a God-centered one. Doctrine does effect evangelism. Another excellent piece is by Rick Nelson.."How does doctrine effect evangelism? http://www.founders.org/journal/fj33/article1.html See, also a website called Monergism.com http://www.monergism.com/ Time spent there will give excellent doctrinal foundations to "rightly divide the word of truth" As always, the challenge is to think theologically, and how to have tough minds and tender hearts. Thank you for the opportunity to converse.
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Telliwel Bah, Africa Telliwel Bah, Africa - 3 January 2010, 1:49 pm Part 2: What are the faulty premises of this picture? I would suggest:: 1.The idolatrous need to please people or ourselves 2.The tinkering with the gospel as it panders in a humanistic way to what people, not God, wants 3. Lowering the bar for entrance into the Kingdom 4.Thinking sociologically first, and theologically second. This shows a human-centered, rather than God-centered approach. 5. An appeal to pragmatism-if it works it must be good 6. A theology derived from the methodology, not a method that is based on solid Biblical exegesis. 7. A failure to ask hard questions about how the spirit of the age is influencing our reading of the Scriptures and a dismissive posture to those who might ask hard questions.
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Telliwel Bah, Africa Telliwel Bah, Africa - 3 January 2010, 1:42 pm Part 1. Dovetailing into what Hussein said about results: Imagine the following: “Our mission/my ministry will good when we can show lots of numbers. Humans prefer the route of least resistance. If we offer a route of least resistance for people “coming to the Lord”, our mission will look good. How can we find this route? Let’s look for every sociological barrier to the adoption of the gospel, whether that be family, culture or religion or all three combined. Great! It worked, so they said, in country X among Muslims, so it must be good. Statistics don't lie. Let’s make an airtight theology around this and dismiss any questioning to the contrary as opposing a work of God......"
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Georges Houssney, Lebanese American Georges Houssney, Lebanese American - 3 January 2010, 6:58 am I was reading Genesis this morning and was struck by this horrible reality: "Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight...God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people had corrupted their ways." Notice the earth is corrupt in God's sight, not man. How does God see Islam today? Does it grieve his heart? Let us bring them out of darkness rather than plunge them in it deeper. Check out http://biblicalmissiology.org and http://engagingislam.org.
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petraon, USA petraon, USA - 3 January 2010, 12:44 am "I am agape at how proponents of C4 and C5 don’t realize how their activism exacerbates the problem. " Thank You, Hussein Hajji Wario, Kenya, for your truthful comment. The Emergent movement is busy trying to water down the Gospel and making the Blood the Jesus shed on the Cross a non-event. They are sending people to hell.
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Hussein Hajji Wario, Kenya Hussein Hajji Wario, Kenya - 2 January 2010, 3:20 pm Number of converts doesn’t matter. The Lord brings the growth and harvest. My conversion in August 1989 did not result due to a missionary’s (national or international) work. There weren’t any in my home area at that time. Orma people still don’t allow Christians who intend to proselytize in their “territory.” After my conversion, I had difficulties acknowledging Jesus Christ as the Son of God. In case you wonder, Islamic ideology is antithetical to Christianity’s. The more I read the Bible the concept became clearer. The issue of Jesus’ deity poses a major dilemma for MBBs. I am agape at how proponents of C4 and C5 don’t realize how their activism exacerbates the problem. Only those who the Father draws will come to the Son. Why are we changing the rules of the game? Is it because our hypothesis has not held up or because the sending church or organization demands results?
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Georges Houssney, Lebanese American Georges Houssney, Lebanese American - 2 January 2010, 11:32 am There is so much confusion about extraction. Though I am opposed to the insider idea, I have never asked or encouraged a convert to leave their family. In most cases there is not extraction. But echoing brother Hussein I have taught them the 7 areas of transformation caused by the Holy Spirit. One of them is the shift from a physical family to a spiritual family. Converts need to feel part of the new family in Christ. They must continue to love and honor their parents. But if the parents do not accept their faith, the new family is there to provide shelter. In my experience, it takes the family 2 to 5 years to accept the conversion of a son or daughter. In many instances I am involved in entire families have come to Christ directly because they see "transformation' and boldness in their child.
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BJ, Norway BJ, Norway - 2 January 2010, 11:21 am Georges to be honest I have led few Muslims to Christ. The HS led most of my friends to Christ through supernatural experiences so I can’t take credit for that. Interestingly, the most difficult discipleship issues were always with those who had had their faith decimated through Modern apologetic approaches that “led them to Christ”. In reality, they became converts to western secular thinking, very rationalistic & “theological”, struggling with unbelief, and with Jesus “tacked on” as Mark would say. The true fruit of Modernity is Atheism of course – how could we expect to get good fruit with Modern tools? Another big issue was those who had been beaten up with 2 Cor 5:17 by ethnic Christians. Sorry to be sensitive to your misuse of this scripture, but it is so often twisted by people who are themselves “looking on the outside” & oblivious of their own culture. What should I answer my friends I mentioned earlier?
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BJ, Norway BJ, Norway - 2 January 2010, 11:20 am Georges I do respect your heritage, accomplishments, & love for Muslims – sorry it does not come across with so few letters allowed. Some of my very closest friends are ME ethnic Christians (ECs). Ive learned much from their insights. As you know the ethnic & cultural divide is enormous between EC & Muslims (& often policed from BOTH sides) Christs body in the ME is splintered into many denominations. In some places denominational allegiance follows lineages of the Arabic Christian tribes! Yet we demand Muslim believers to be MORE mature? An insider movement is no weaker ecclesiology than what evangelicalism has already done. My friends cringe when ECs sing “send Your fire Lord” & are shocked at the polytheism simple EC believers often unwittingly express. The forms are western, the songs imported, the words are strange. Culture IS an issue. Very few ECs can stomach joining these transplants of western denominations & the barriers are even higher for Muslims.
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Hussein Hajji Wario, Kenya Hussein Hajji Wario, Kenya - 2 January 2010, 7:32 am A new believer leaving his or her culture (“home”) to follow Christ is biblical. Our persecution or suffering is ordained. Whatever happened to the cost of discipleship? This is not about numbers! “I tell you the truth,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age (homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—and with them, persecutions) and in the age to come, eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and the last first.” (Mark 10:29-31, NIV). Sadly, some of us Christians cannot distinguish between some western culture and Christianity or vice versa, or heresy and the Gospel.
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Telliwel Bah, Africa Telliwel Bah, Africa - 2 January 2010, 3:57 am To Mark from Spain. Re. Do they have to leave their family and be persecuted? Ever heard of 'oikos'? It is a word for household. In the Kingdom of God we have a new household with new brothers and sisters by adopton, a new head of the household--even God the Father, new household rules, a new household inheritance, and new household honour. Some seem to be ashamed of this new household and would try to make you think a lot about physical family first and spiritual family second. This is backwards. Scripturally, someone who is a new creation is part of a new family, and has the privilege of being persecuted as the Master by those outside of the new household . Phillipians 1:29 " For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake"
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Telliwel Bah, Africa Telliwel Bah, Africa - 2 January 2010, 3:41 am To Mark from Spain. Are they in the Kingdom.? Good question. Some IM proponents are really confused here. They fail to distinguish the general rule of God as King over everything, including the kingdom of darkness--where anyone who is not a new creation, including Muslims are found, and those who have bowed the knee in repentance to King Jesus. Islam is a kingdom in rebellion to Christ. If those with visions have known the holiness of God, the ugliness of sin, genuine repentance, and a resultant love for Christ's people, and show the the fruits of repentance, I would say they are in the kingdom. Angels of light, do exist, however to fool people.
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Mark Cannon, Spain Mark Cannon, Spain - 2 January 2010, 3:01 am I appreciate Joseph article and the central question of a Muslim becoming a follower of Christ. There are reports around the world of Muslims who are having super-natural encounters with Christ. What about Muslims who have had dreams and visions of the man in white, which led them to follow Christ? Are they in the Kingdom of God? How do you know if someone is in the Kingdom? Forget the tags of Insider vs Extraction. Do they have to leave their family and be persecuted? Do they have to throw away all the cultural norms?
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Georges Houssney, Lebanese American Georges Houssney, Lebanese American - 2 January 2010, 12:55 am BJ from Norway: What can I say? I have no interest in insulting you. I invite you to come free of charge to our training to see if it is in denial. Let me ask you: How many Muslims have you led to Christ? What do you know about the insider story of Islam. What do you make of my growing up in a Muslim community and planting numerous churches among them. Your writings seem to be theoretical semantics. Your statement that Acts is all about complex cultural issues tells me that you have totally missed the point of Acts. There is absolutely nothing in the book of Acts on culture. Contextualists in their desperation misinterpret Paul to suit their views. Do you honestly believe that Paul encouraged people to remain religiously Jewish and culturally Greek? His converts on Mars Hills are said to have joined him. He did not join them. Write me privately if you want because this conversation maybe changing next week. ghoussney@horizonsinternational.org
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Georges Houssney, Lebanese American Georges Houssney, Lebanese American - 2 January 2010, 12:33 am The problem is not keeping some external expressions of culture like dress and some innocent practices such sitting on the floor. The problem is keeping the Muslim identity. Coming to Christ means total break away with the past; "the old is gone, the new has come." 2 Cor 5:17. Come to our training and received a balanced approach using the Bible. http://engagingislam.org
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Mark Stephan Mark Stephan - 1 January 2010, 3:12 pm Hussein, yes, many missionaries did, and do cause many problems and they shouldn't unless the gospel itself calls for those problems. Keep your name, and your clothes. Keep whatever is not linked to idolatry. The problem is IM steps across that line and demands people remain inside to the extent of remaining in idolatry. Any insider that upholds the Koran & Muhammad is in idolatry whether or not they tacked Jesus onto their faith. It is nothing else but a new false cult.
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Hussein Hajji Wario, Kenya Hussein Hajji Wario, Kenya - 1 January 2010, 2:18 pm Here is what I experienced. When my family became aware of my faith in Christ, I was persecuted. When the Kenyan government representative made the final decision to severe our ties, I lived with many Christian families. There were times when I wore my “Muslim” clothes, only to be told that I had not fully converted. Some even insisted that I drop my “Muslim” name. Please and please, let us use this platform to correct these wrongs. And those who the Father draws will come to the true knowledge of His Son. As far as the "insider" movement, I wouldn't be surprised if it is a Muslim ploy to undermine the Gospel.
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Hussein Hajji Wario, Kenya Hussein Hajji Wario, Kenya - 1 January 2010, 2:15 pm Christian missionaries have made many attempts to evangelize my people group since 1860s. The first one was Dr. Ludwig Krapf. A “church” was even built that still stands. We are pastoralist, moving often from lowlands to highlands during rainy seasons. The missionaries had hoped my ancestors would settle down. It never materialized. They even attempted to pay for church attendance with no results. Orma believers only came about in late 1980s. We are a handful now. Missionary efforts did more harm than good because Orma people still believe that Christianity buys converts. There is a great need to have reform in how Christians do missions to Muslims and adherents to other religions without any compromise to the Gospel.
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BJ, Norway BJ, Norway - 1 January 2010, 4:35 am Phil 3 & the “new creation” verses (2 Cor 5, Gal 6) appear addressed to ethnocentric Jewish believers who were forcing their culture on everyone as “more Biblical” (or maybe they never noticed they had a culture). They were bullies, probably using every opportunity to accuse Paul of being unbiblical, liar, false teacher, money-greedy, diluting the Gospel etc. Good thing they did not have Internet. I wonder if todays equivalent of “circumcision” is the cultural label “Christian”. It is simply not an essential part of the Gospel (the first believers did not use this term). If so, a modern paraphrase of Gal 6:12-16 could be: “Not even those who are “Christian” obey Christ, yet they want you to be “Christians” that they may boast about your flesh. May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. Neither “Christian” nor “Muslim” means anything; what counts is a new creation.”
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Telliwel Bah, Africa Telliwel Bah, Africa - 1 January 2010, 4:13 am Once I was in a communist controlled country. I asked the local believers about the local churches and they told me there were white coloured, pink coloured and red coloured churches. The last two they said, had sold out in different ways to the beliefs of the local government. They said the government described the people in the "red" churches as 'useful idiots," --- useful only to advance their program. Makes me wonder about this insider thing, especially with Wario's remarks about how Muslims think about C4/5 contextualization. Might they refer to insider "missionaries" in the same way as the communist government did?
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Telliwel Bah, Africa Telliwel Bah, Africa - 1 January 2010, 3:12 am Thank you Hussein Hajji Wario for your comments and Georges also. I listened to Tim Keller say that each sermon has three possible subtexts: "Look at how great I am;, look at how great we are; or look at how great He is." You hit the nail on the head. The insider movement spends a huge amount of money, energy and effort to talk about how great they are and what wonderful people they are. I wish I would hear more about how great Jesus is. I suggest a study of the book of Hebrews might get people back on track.
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Georges Houssney, Lebanese American Georges Houssney, Lebanese American - 31 December 2009, 6:12 pm The C1-C6 paradigm has become the issue when the issue is the GOSPEL. Human strategies are just that, human. Why in the world are we battling over a man designed concept? Let us shift gears and begin to talk about the Jesus method. Jesus and the Apostles preached a transformational message. Transformation means death to the old and the start of a new life. "... if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! (II Corinthians 5:17) Does Paul expect complete loss of the past? Here is his answer: "I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ (Philippians 3:8) Did you read right, ALL THINGS? Might this exclude culture, theology, morality and lifestyle? Not at all! Remember "Let God be true, and every man a liar." (Romans 3:4)
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Hussein Hajji Wario, Kenya Hussein Hajji Wario, Kenya - 31 December 2009, 12:25 pm At least one Muslim scholar claims contextualization in Christianity is more of "an antic than evangelism." Please look up the arguments. I tried numerous times to post the long article to no avail. You can read it online under my name. My initial response was to Mazhar Mallouhi's response. Brethren, let us keep an open mind, with the Bible being the sole and final authority on this matter.
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Hussein Hajji Wario, Kenya Hussein Hajji Wario, Kenya - 31 December 2009, 10:22 am Great article, Dr. Cumming. Contextualization is a brilliant (C1, C2 and C3) Christian Missiology idea that has gone amok (C4 and C5). I am a former Sunni Muslim who was born and raised in Kenya. A madrassa graduate. My people group, the Orma, is one of the "unreached" peoples in the world. I am only the second one to come to salvation in Jesus Christ. I have a long article, mostly as a response to one of the responders who claimed to be a Muslim follower of Jesus, but cannot post it. (Please look it up under my name if you like.) The Qur'an vehemently rejects the deity, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. How can a Muslim claim to adhere to its teachings and at the same time be a follower of Christ and claim him to be his savior? Impossible. Just so you know, Muslim scholars are mocking Christian contextualization movement. You don't have to go far to find that criticism online, mostly quoting Christian scholars who are known experts in the field. Is this what we need?
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BJ, Norway BJ, Norway - 31 December 2009, 6:12 am Heres a link to an excellent beginner’s book for those who think we should not waste time with cross-cultural training/issues and just get into the “real” stuff. The monkey story is hilarious (p14). By the end of the day this good-hearted monkey had planted a well-behaved church that did not seem to struggle with any cultural issues at all! The monkey’s next move would probably be to start training other monkeys to do the same. http://books.google.com/books?id=l9ehkPd2cwEC&lpg=PA209&dq=%22Cross%20cultu ral%20connections%22%20%22monkeys%20mission%20and%20us%22&pg=PA13#v=onepage
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BJ, Norway BJ, Norway - 31 December 2009, 5:34 am “Culture has been over rated in modern missions". Oh come on! The deepest state of ethnocentrism is called “Denial”. Next comes “Defense” and then “Minimization”. Not much use getting “missions” training from people who appear to be in denial stage. Missions minus Culture = Evangelism. Evangelism works on an “attractional” principle: Pull people into the church’s orbit and hopefully they will “get saved” and stay (eg Alpha course). Its easy since you work with people on your own cultural turf. You intuitively know what to do. Mission is the opposite: it is “incarnational”. You LEAVE your own cultural turf, cross cultural barriers and work to see a completely new movement of Christ-followers start in ANOTHER CULTURE . It was a difficult lesson for Peter and Co. in Acts 10 because it is so counter-intuitive. Surely “cultural issues naturally take care of themselves”! Well… no they don’t. Acts and most of Paul's letters are ALL about complex cultural issues.
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Geroges Houssney, Lebanese American Geroges Houssney, Lebanese American - 31 December 2009, 2:46 am Want to understand Islam and how to reach them effectively? Check out our training in the city near you. No other program combines Islamics, theology, and practical training as we do. Our graduates are fruitful in evangelizing, discipling and planting churches. Jesus and Paul provide the biblical models, many case studies and stories of conversions from around the world provide the contemporary models. http://horizonsinternational.org/training/engaging_islam.
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Georges Houssney, Lebanese American Georges Houssney, Lebanese American - 31 December 2009, 2:29 am Put your hand close to your eyes and you will see nothing but your hand. What occupies your mind occupies you. Focus on culture and culture is all you see. Culture has been over rated in modern missions. Our main occupation must be the salvation of the lost and the transformation of their heart, mind, and lifestyle. That certainly includes cultural behavior. Discipleship will help guide the new Christian in dealing with life's issues including cultural ones. In all the churches I have planted in M. lands, I have had to deal very little with cultural issues. Why? Because cultural issues naturally take care of themselves.
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Telliwel Bah, Africa Telliwel Bah, Africa - 30 December 2009, 2:11 pm I just read a book called Bearing Christ's Reproach by David deSilva. He talks a lot about honor and shame and that speaks to my culture. The biggest shame is to show distrust in the ability of the Patron to carry one through to the end. I wonder if some parts of this movement are really an expression of distrust, and so they have to humanly take care of all the angles for the new Christian who comes out of Islam. I surely would not want to meet up with the living God and have him tell me that I could not enter the promised land because I distrusted him like the Isreaelites. What do you think?
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Telliwel Bah, Africa Telliwel Bah, Africa - 30 December 2009, 1:51 pm I talked to a brother about this issue. He is a Heaven Foreground Believer (HFB) and like all formerly unregenerate people, was dead in his sins before. He admists he was hostile to God as per Romans, and a follower of the majority religion here until God opened his heart to hear the gospel. His own words, "why are they trying to make Christians who are no good for Christianity and Muslims who are no good for Islam?" Food for thought
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Mark Stephan Mark Stephan - 30 December 2009, 8:07 am I don't see John as part of the Culture, and certainly Jesus wasn't part of the culture of his day. Jesus was part of the Biblically Kingdom Culture that came to call back those who had strayed back to God. The Jews had such culture shock with Jesus & John, that they killed them. The only ones who were attracted to the Kingdom Culture were those already rejected by their own culture. John called out that the Messiah was coming, the purpose of the Messiah was to usher in a new Kingdom. No one is going to be able to reject their culture fully, but through the process of sanctification, it will start to shed like layers of an onion, like dead skin preparing to live the Kingdom life fully in Heaven. Why would anyone want anything that isn't fully of God? Why would we want them to?
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Biblical Missiology Biblical Missiology - 30 December 2009, 7:52 am New Biblical Missiology post: Beware of False Teachers: http://biblicalmissiology.org/
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BJ, Norway BJ, Norway - 30 December 2009, 3:24 am I don’t see “insider” as necessarily meaning 100% sold out to (compromised by) ones culture. No ones claiming it is possible to go along 100% with any culture & simultaneously follow Christ. The issue is how one is perceived by ones community. John the Baptist lived on the extreme edge of his culture. Many wouldve considered him weird yet he was an “insider”: He was fluent in the culture, took a valid role in it, & most of all was seen as “one of us” by the Jews of the day. Yet he was also prophetic; he spoke Gods word into the culture and brought about transformation from the inside. I think all believers are called to be prophetic insiders within their own culture (or missionaries!) - not sold-out cultural compromisers; not a sneaky 5th column; not empire hopping escapists or opportunists; & not culture-rejecting dualists. Its not about avoiding persecution either-John didn’t. Its about being a bridge for Gods truth out into a culture (Jn 10:9 maybe?)
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Dagmar, Germany Dagmar, Germany - 29 December 2009, 2:02 pm I would like to add the following aspect to the discussion: When the gospel was spreed in Europe it was contextualizied to the pagan beliefs. Christmas and easter were both pagan feasts, that were redesignated into christian feasts. I think, western christians should be very conscouis about the fact, that western/christian culture is not automatically biblical according to the NT.
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Bro.Timothy, Asia Bro.Timothy, Asia - 29 December 2009, 9:31 am Dear Bro's, Sis. The Lord has me involved now along time in both sides of this...I advocate the "Balanced Biblical MBB Approach" and see it range from "insider" Nicodemus to bold Stephen. Sometimes Paul fled and sometimes he took a stoning, we must all learn to walk in trust and faith and not be too quick to judge in grace, or too soft to correct in love. Recently I have been in dialogue with these bro's ( See i2 Ministries has uploaded a 17-minute sample video on Insider Movements: A Critical Assessment. Simply go to www.i2ministries.org and click "Downloads". It does take some time to download as it is a bit large video. I ask parties on both sides to use all the tools in our tool boxes to His glory and not think our tool is the very best all the time in all parts of every culture. Let's make Truth in Love our Best Tools work together to His glory.
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Mel Foster, Australia Mel Foster, Australia - 28 December 2009, 7:11 pm Helpful conversation, thanks...I teach English as a Second Language in Adelaide, Australia, for most of my Muslim students, attending prayer on a friday is about community and associating with their fellow countrymen (mainly Saudi Arabian) thus contextualisation is incredibly important for them to still feel at home in a foreign country. However, in my class last week i had a big discussion in the class about the Christmas story and one Muslim student commented how offended he was that Christians suggest that Jesus was born in a stable rather than a palace. It made me wonder just how in the C5 example two groups of people with such different views of Jesus could really worship harmoniously together.
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Dibankap Benvictor Ojongmanyinkongho, Republic of Cameroon Dibankap Benvictor Ojongmanyinkongho, Republic of Cameroon - 28 December 2009, 12:46 pm I think contextualization has to do with the realities of a particular culture different from another culture, and not adapting the gospel to the uniqueness and identity of a particular culture. If we agree that the gospel transcends every culture,then i think when a muslim like a pagan who hears and believes the gospel should submit the full authority of the word God and the Holy Spirit and be made conformable to the image which is the expected unique identity of every genuine believer in christ. Paul said in christ there is neither Jew nor Greek,male or female,muslim or westener etc.Every believer in Christ is call upon to submit his or her self to biblical discipleship with the goal being transformation that makes the individual the image of christ on earth.
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Joseph Cumming, USA Joseph Cumming, USA - 28 December 2009, 9:14 am The official Exposition & Commentary on the Lausanne Covenant adds about the Bible: "Its inalterability is not a dead, wooden, colorless uniformity. For as the Holy Spirit used the personality and culture of the writers of his Word in order to convey through each something fresh and appropriate, so today he illumines the minds of God's people in every culture to perceive its truth freshly through their own eyes. It is he who opens the eyes of our hearts (Eph. 1:17,18), and these eyes and hearts belong to young and old, Latin and Anglo-Saxon, African, Asian and American, male and female, poetic and prosaic. It is this 'magnificent and intricate mosaic of mankind' (to borrow a phrase of Dr. Donald McGavran's) which the Holy Spirit uses to disclose from Scripture ever more of the many-colored wisdom of God (a literal translation of Eph. 3:10). Thus the whole church is needed to receive God's whole revelation in all its beauty and richness (cf., Eph. 3:18 'with all the saints')."
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Joseph Cumming, USA Joseph Cumming, USA - 28 December 2009, 9:11 am The Lausanne Covenant comments on this: "God's revelation in Christ and in Scripture is unchangeable. Through it the Holy Spirit still speaks today. He illumines the minds of God's people in every culture to perceive its truth freshly through their own eyes and thus discloses to the whole Church ever more of the many-colored wisdom of God."
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Joseph Cumming, USA Joseph Cumming, USA - 28 December 2009, 9:10 am Eph 2:11-3:18 teaches that it is through the Church composed of people reconciled from all nations that the multicolored wisdom of God is made known, and that it is only together with all the saints from all nations that we can fully grasp the multidimensional love of Christ. So we clearly do need brothers and sisters from other cultures to lay bare our blind spots.
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BJ, Norway BJ, Norway - 28 December 2009, 6:19 am Another strawman argument. I do believe in absolute Truth, in Gods revelation of that in the Bible, & that we can know truth.We see in part (“but a poor reflection” 1Cor 13:9-12) but we DO see! Yet we have calvinism, arminianism, church govmt. theologies, pentecostalism, cessationism etc–all mutually irreconcilable, yet all “biblical”. Its hardly anthropology to see mans fingerprints here.Your apparent inability to differentiate Gods Word from mans theology is exactly my point: this typically Modern cultural blindness tempts us to think only we are “truly” biblical & has splintered Christs Body into 100s of denominations. Yes, syncretistic individualism says just ME, the Bible & the HS, but the HS often speaks through PEOPLE to lay bare our blindspots. Its ethnocentric to demand the HS wont correct western evangelicalisms blindspots thru the global x-cultural body of Christ. We need it. Maybe thats partly why God planned multiple cultures from the beginning?
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Mark Stephan Mark Stephan - 27 December 2009, 7:51 pm You just made my point again. You think as a believer in Christ, that I can't know Truth. That God (Holy Spirit, Christ, His Word) isn't sufficient to show it to me. You believe I need a Muslim (albeit w/ a form of Isa attached) to teach my my blind spots. Show me biblically where the Bible says this? Because as far as I can tell, my blind spots are laid bare by the Word of God (The Bible) and the Holy Spirit working through me to reveal it to me. So you're telling me I need something beyond the HS & Bible. All I've ever seen you post is anthropological and sociological views, but never anything Biblical. I've asked you probably a dozen times. C5 is not about Christians in a Muslim culture, It's about Muslims adding a malformed ungodly anti-christ to their religion.
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BJ, Norway BJ, Norway - 27 December 2009, 5:05 pm Oh Mark. Of course we can know Truth. I simply said since THEOLOGY is mans project it cant be totally free from cultural influence or blindspots (How else can one explain the extreme dualism in your posts for eg?) The 4 Gospels offer 4 different theologies/views of Christ & that is a strength not weakness! Its naïve to see the timing of the Enlightenment & Reformation as merely coincidental. Protestantism & Evangelicalism are highly contextualized insider movements within Western Modernity, which have blindspots believers from other cultures see plainly (I listed a few earlier) Thus we desperately need the global body of Christ & HS. Rather than attacking we need to listen to Christ-followers outside of our Modern secular culture. It worries me that the inherent arrogance of Modernity, that has caused so much division & damage within Evangelicalism, is now being turned on our brothers & sisters who follow Christ within Muslim culture. We need each other
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Mark Stephan Mark Stephan - 27 December 2009, 9:33 am BJ, it seems I've run into this argument before. Though, never from a christian. The argument is that no one can know the truth, that truth is relative, and that what is right for me is not right for others and it is arrogant of me to say I know 'truth' when it comes to faith. Relativism is a very Post-modern world view. There is a Truth BJ, it's not relative. God doesn't make relative truth. Where's your Biblical evidence for this? None of the disciples, Jesus, epistles, etc.. ever presented a relative gospel.
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BJ, Norway BJ, Norway - 25 December 2009, 4:36 pm A quaint feature of the Modernity religion(worldview) is the illusion it gives of being objective. This cultural blind-spot has led to many bitter divisions amongst C5 Christ-followers within Modernity (aka Evangelicals). The most common symptom is the claim of having “truly biblical theology/missiology”-and because they have it everyone else is unbiblical. The false assumption is that their theology comes directly & objectively from the Bible. Yet sandwiched between Bible & theology is their culture. Theology is a culture’s interpretation of Truth; God IS Truth. Theological pontification is no longer an exclusive pastime for Western theologians either. Its gone global so get used to “truly biblical theologies” PLURAL. As insecure as they make us feel, we need these theologies developed by Asian, African and Muslim Christ-followers to show us our blind spots (& they need us!) I am deeply grateful for what I have learned from Mazhars life & work. Merry Christmas!
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Biblical Missiology & Evangelical Islamic Studies Society Biblical Missiology & Evangelical Islamic Studies Society - 25 December 2009, 12:12 pm New article: Building bridges of love to Muslims http://biblicalmissiology.org/ EXCERPT: We need to realize that we must seek transformation for the Muslim rather than modification.
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Georges Houssney, Lebanese American Georges Houssney, Lebanese American - 25 December 2009, 1:14 am Engaging Islam seminars offer a truly biblical missiology. Our graduates are effective in sharing the gospel with Muslims. Our approach is proven, tested and producing fruit for the gospel. Consider coming or sending someone to enhance your understanding of Islam and Muslims, Learn the various approaches and strategies in ministry to Muslims and Learn how to make disciples and plant churches in Muslim lands. Our teachers including former Muslims are experienced workers who lead successful ministries. They will take you inside Islam and show you how to impact Muslims with the gospel. Visit http://www.engagingislam.org
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VicR, USA VicR, USA - 24 December 2009, 2:58 pm Whatever one's opinion of C5 movements, I would hope we could all agree that it would be very wrong to identify people involved in these ministries to the larger public in dangerous countries when doing so could seriously threaten their lives. From reports I have heard, this HAS happened, and from what I understand it was done intentionally. I would beg and pray that any opponents of C5 would draw the line at being instigators of murder. Please!
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Mark Stephan Mark Stephan - 24 December 2009, 9:31 am No one is saying God can't save people in these situations. God can save a Muslim, Mormon, Jehovah Witness, Hindu, Atheist, Materialist, Homosexual, Murderer, etc... He does this every day. Each one of these people are stuck in their own idolatries, as was I. If they are truly saved, Holy Spirit filled, then they will leave those idolatries. Some faster than others, but ultimately it is God's purpose that they are purged of all of it. Islam is not a culture. It is idolatry like anything else. All vestiges of Islam need to be purged. Nothing of idolatry can remain. Our God is a jealous God & demands unobstructed obedience and attention. C5 says vestiges of it can remain as long as vestiges of Christ are there. I believe the Bible is clear, that is impossible. 1 Corinthians 10:18-28 This verse has nothing to do with my culture. It has to do with the Bible's command.
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BJ, Norway BJ, Norway - 24 December 2009, 4:53 am I wonder if some of us evangelicals have an emotional reaction to the Gospel’s outworking in other cultures due to the highly syncretistic nature of our own faith? Above the demands for something “biblical” one often hears a dualistic rejection of all “worldly” culture and knowledge. I’m guessing this is linked somehow to Modernity’s sacred-secular divide (or maybe even Greek Gnosticism?). This, and a “scientific” proof-text use of God’s Word; demands to “prove it”; bleak iconoclasm, general apologetic approach; & the smug Dawkins-like self-confidence so characteristic of Modernity, are all hallmarks of a highly contextualised C5 Christ-following “insider” within the religion/culture of Modern Secularism. Still, I have great hope that many of us Western Evangelicals will be saved. I just wish we would extend a little grace to others who are also struggling to follow Christ within their own religio-cultural contexts.
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Alllister, USA Alllister, USA - 24 December 2009, 1:22 am Here's one thing I have noticed. The drawing line between whether a person is following what Christ taught in spreading the Gospel is their view of baptism. Experience says that MBBs often experience growth and the H.S. powerfully effects them with this step of obedience. That's the first question worth asking. Are these movements creating baptised 'followers of Jesus? Christianity does have some 'pillars' which Jesus established. I'm tired of people saying they have all these 'secret believers' who are so secret they aren't baptised and can't meet with other believers. At what point does insider become incestuous?
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Mark Stephan Mark Stephan - 24 December 2009, 12:44 am BJ said, "Culture is God’s idea. In Gen 1, He commands spread out, fill the earth, establish His Kingdom. " That is not the definition of culture. Culture is a set of mutually agreed on unwritten rules that a society runs by. Originally this was God's law, and His Kingdom. When sin entered into the equation we made rules and laws (often corrupt) to deal with a sinful world. This was not God's intention. Human culture is purely a result of the fall and in contrast to the Kingdom Culture that God keeps calling us back to. Human culture is not precious. God's Kingdom is. We are to conform to it, not it to us. Sorry BJ, the world doesn't revolve around us. I couldn't disagree with you more on your Theological analysis of culture in the Bible.
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Dr David Koudougueret , Central African Republic Dr David Koudougueret , Central African Republic - 23 December 2009, 9:17 pm I hae been using the C5 model since five years now. I will take time to share some of our experiences and struggles in the next days. May the Lord bless you..
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travis, central asia travis, central asia - 23 December 2009, 8:27 pm I have been working in Muslim countries for 15 years, this is the first i have heard of C's. i have joined this not so much to debate the C's but because of the initial question "Can one be a muslim and a follower of Christ". My mother in-law is a Muslim who believes in Jesus as the son of God. for sure i haven't attempted to discredit her faith but i am intrigued at her claim then when stumbling on this blog I of course took interest. Look forward to reading any responses.
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BJ, Norway BJ, Norway - 23 December 2009, 2:53 pm Culture is God’s idea. In Gen 1, He commands spread out, fill the earth, establish His Kingdom. This guaranteed cultures and languages. Babel was discipline, but God also sped up a process that was meant to happen-if man had obeyed his command. Look at how many times “nations” is mentioned in the Bible! Almost all its stories have some x-cultural aspect. God planned culture so I believe He loves culture. I’m not saying God approves of everything. No culture is without some evil. Satan has always been at work-in every culture and at all times-in order to blind minds to the Gospel’s light. But, I just don’t believe Satan is working harder or more extensively than God. How does that affect missiology? Culture is precious; the HS got there first; we can expect to find truth that can be built on; and yes, truth that we can learn from too. Its naïve to think one can be purely “biblical”. Culture is the water we swim in; it mediates everything. Cultures are to be redeemed-not destroyed!
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Biblical Missiology & Evangelical Islamic Studies Society Biblical Missiology & Evangelical Islamic Studies Society - 23 December 2009, 1:01 pm New Blog Post: Contextualizing the Culture not the Gospel - Written by a Christian from a Muslim Background http://biblicalmissiology.org/
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Ephrem Hagos, Ethiopia Ephrem Hagos, Ethiopia - 23 December 2009, 7:57 am What is even much more distressing than lack of any first-hand experience with Muslims (and others) by evangelists is their utter lack of personal knowledge of the GOOD NEWS, viz.: Jesus Christ as revealed, once and for all, in his perfect and transfigurative death on the cross!
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Ephrem Hagos, Ethiopia Ephrem Hagos, Ethiopia - 23 December 2009, 7:38 am With the perfect and transfigurative death of Jesus Christ on the cross, the time is long overdue for people to worship God universally, as he is, i.e., in Spirit and truth, but not according to any religious observances! (John 4: 21-26; 8: 21-28; 19: 30-37; Holy Quran, IV, 156-159). Make no mistake about it: the righteous judgment of God, based on comparative advantages, will certainly be harder on Christians than on Muslims! (Luke 12: 41-48)
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Biblical Missiology & Evangelical Islamic Studies Society Biblical Missiology & Evangelical Islamic Studies Society - 22 December 2009, 6:02 pm New Blog Post: Kingdom Thinking in Ministry to Muslims http://biblicalmissiology.org/
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BJ, Norway BJ, Norway - 22 December 2009, 4:43 pm Forget the C-Scale. A uni-dimensional “Muslim” to “Christian” C-scale is ridiculously inadequate. For example, if the C scale had a 2nd dimension - such as “western secularism.” - I think you would find some of our C3 workers are actually syncretistic missionaries of the Modern worldview/religion. Problem is, these guys are smug in their C3 status yet they are veering off away from us, perpendicular and so unobservable, from the uni-dimensional scale
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Allister, USA Allister, USA - 22 December 2009, 3:20 pm Lets be honest! C5 is a non issue. Those I know following this strategy have less fruit among Muslims than an average international church. Muslims take their book seriously and proclaim it, and Christians sneaking around and molding their message to the hearer are easily bowled over. Be the people of the book and people respect you. Many Middle Eastern countries throw out people trying these crazy strategies. The church doesn't know them, they most be a cult and a threat to the society. IF an MBB wants to live deeply incarnate with his people and follow Muslim rituals- fine. For foreigners, such attempts often are misunderstood by both Christians and Muslims. Muslims aren't dumb!
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Allister, USA Allister, USA - 22 December 2009, 3:04 pm I was recently with an Arab ethnic Christian who has a tremendous love for Muslims and is continually involved in sharing Christ. A Westerner was challenging him on his model of ministry - was it C3, C4 or C5. He had never heard of the scale and was offended that he a person who has lived and witnessed to Muslims his whole life was being told 'how to do it'. The arrogance! While some people carry on - high minded theoretical Muslim-Christian dialogue and create models and strategies, other followers of Jesus are out there day after day incarnating Jesus and sharing His message. That is what counts!
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Allister, USA Allister, USA - 22 December 2009, 2:39 pm BJ, Why pick on the Middle Eastern Christians? We both know many shining examples of ethnic Christians with a deep love for Muslims which far surpasses any Westerners commitment. Read the story of the Accad family. We all have hurts we can nurse towards other Christians but many Arab Christians are being used powerfully throughout the Middle East. We can also recount many stories of Muslim Converts taking advantage of Christians in the Middle East or the West. What is the point? Lets talk about Jesus and drop our silly strategies.
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Roger D. McKinney, USA Roger D. McKinney, USA - 22 December 2009, 1:44 pm Yes, the term "Messianic Jew" is contradictory. Jews have always defined themselves as the descendants of Abraham who rejected Jesus as the Messiah. Rejection of Jesus as Messiah, outside of physical descent, is the defining nature of Judaism. Just ask anyone in Israel.
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Roger D. McKinney, USA Roger D. McKinney, USA - 22 December 2009, 1:42 pm Not all truths are created equal. Some are vastly more important that others. If converts from Islam believe in the essentials to salvation, then love for them requires tolerance of their choices of worship. As Paul wrote about eating meat, why destroy a brother over something as stupid as how they worship? The problem with some Christians is that they can't tolerate any differences whatsoever in other believers; everyone much act and look exactly like them or they're evil!
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Cobus Prinsloo, South Africa Cobus Prinsloo, South Africa - 21 December 2009, 3:39 pm I believe it is possible for a Muslim to become a Christian and remain within the Muslim culture. This way he/she could have a much more effective way of evangelizing other Muslims. However, to be a Christian and still stick to Muslim prayers and their religious rituals, is Scripturally unfounded and would border for me, by analogy, to the story of Daniel's three friends remaining faithful to their God while at the same time bowing down to the idol of Nebucadnezzar. This is not what happened! Muslims believe Jesus was a great prophet like Muhammad -- nothing more. Therefore to talk about a "Muslim Christian" is a contradiction in terms and will only cause confusion concerning Christian doctrine. It is misleading to legitimize this term by equating it with the term "Messianic Jew" which is not contradictory.
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BJ, Norway BJ, Norway - 21 December 2009, 2:00 am #2: (cont)… every year they tell me to wait one more year before I am baptised - I will always be ‘min khalfeyyah’”Yet when I read the verse the ethnic christians use, "if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!", in context, it is all about not regarding others from a worldly point of view; that we are all equal under Christ regardless of our cultural/social backgrounds. How ironic that this verse is used to enforce similar worldly thinking today! Paul uses the phrase again in Gal 6:15 “Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation.” Like the ethnically christian Evangelicals above, these believers assumed that their “biblical” culture was better and were forcing it on to new believers. Yet the message of Acts 10 tells us otherwise: if is possible to be a follower of Christ inside the violent, idolatrous, and immoral Roman culture and see it transformed, it is possible to see any culture redeemed.b
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BJ, Norway BJ, Norway - 21 December 2009, 2:00 am #1: Georges, I agree 2 Cor 5:17 is important since it is often used by ethnically christian Evangelicals in the ME to pressure ethnically muslim believers into their cultural mould. Eg my friend in Syria who was told this & asked to shave before coming to church again (also Gen 41:14!!!). Coptic & Phoenician evangelicals have employed it to tell new believers to stop using “salamu ‘alaykum” as a greeting and to change their names. My Jordanian friend who has heard it many times once complained “I will always be a 2nd class Christian; they’ll never let me into leadership; I can never marry one of their daughters; if I skip church they’ll say ‘Ha, we knew he was fake’, whereas if one of them does they will rush to visit him and urge him to return.” Another told me: “If an [ethnic] christian becomes a believer, no matter how bad his background or ignorance of the faith, they will welcome him & baptise him quite quickly. I’m never invited home by them after the service & …
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KC Lynn, USA KC Lynn, USA - 20 December 2009, 9:43 pm Dare I put God into a box as to how He can work in the hearts and lives of the unsaved? Surely He is able to bring sinners into His Kingdom and His Spirit can guide them in how to live out their faith, according to His Word. Who am I, in my comfortable US home, to sit in judgment over those in other cultures and how they must proceed? Did the Corinthians get it right the first few years? No. How about the Thessalonians, Ephesians, Colossians, or Philippians? And countless other groups? Yet God, in His mercy and wisdom, guided them. Let's spend our energy praying for Muslims to hear His voice and enter His kingdom--and listen to His voice telling them how to grow in their faith.
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Vidar, Norway Vidar, Norway - 20 December 2009, 8:14 am Susanna from Belgium; No, and I never wrote that Muhammad IS the devil. But if he ever was a prophet, then he was the devil's prophet! And how can I say that? How can I "offend" and insult several million muslims by saying that? Simply by referring to the Bible! Everyone who proclaims that Jesus is NOT the son of God, is not FROM God! Everyone who denies that Jesus is Lord, is led not by the Holy Spirit, but by Gods enemy, THE DEVIL! Why has it suddenly become so difficult for Christians to proclaim the word of GOD? To refere to the Bible? The word of God will of course both offend and insult - and hurt - those who are hit by it. But if we stop proclaiming the WORD, then we are not doing our duty as Christians! And if the moderator of this discussion keep on censoring every argument saying that islam is not from God (e.g. from the devil!), he is simply destroying the whole discussion...
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CHERIAN P.V., INDIA CHERIAN P.V., INDIA - 20 December 2009, 7:57 am THANKS FOR SENDING THIS INFORMATION ABOUT MUSLIMS; I HAVE BEEN PRAYING ABOUT THE URGENT NEED TO TELL MUSLIMS ABOUT JESUS THE ONLY SON OF GOD WHO DIED ON THE CROSS FOR THEM ALL; AND HE IS NOW WAITING TO WELCOME THEM INTO HIS ARMS.
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Salaam Corniche, Africa Salaam Corniche, Africa - 20 December 2009, 6:54 am Besides self-determination, there is another sub-text that I am seeing. It is that empathy trumps truthfulness. Compare a statement by John Wenham, who failed to heed his own good advise and fell into the “leaven of the Pharisees”, namely annihilationism. He said, “Beware of the immense natural appeal of any way out that evades the idea of everlasting sin and suffering. The temptation to twist what may be quite plain statements of Scripture is intense. It is the ideal situation for unconscious rationalizing.” Jesus warned against this leaven. (Matt. 16:6). It is almost invisible, grows exponentially, influences the whole dough, comes from religious leaders—often polished, articulate, seemingly caring and intelligent—but is ultimately destructive. As always, ‘caveat emptor’: Buyer beware and Bereans wake up. See: Brian Schwertley’s “Christ’s Warning Concerning False Teachers” www.reformedonline.com/view/reformedonline/False%20Teachers.htm
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Salaam Corniche, Africa Salaam Corniche, Africa - 20 December 2009, 6:16 am How many times did I read and hear in all of the contributions that BMB’s (believers of Muslim background) should be free to determine just how, when and where they will worship? The appeal is made to avoid cultural imperialism. A dab of truth, touching, but ultimately unscriptural. Actually another culture is being imposed. It has been said that the “ultimate presupposition---idea behind the scenes—in evangelicalism is absolute self-determination.” ---self-determination to “choose Christ;. self-determination to call yourself what you like.; self-determination to worship where and how you like. It is the American way. Yet, in exacting detail God describes how He would be worshipped in the Hebrew Testament. Ditto for the New? What of the regulative principle of worship? “I am not my own….” (1 Cor 6:19 c.f. John 5:30)
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BJ, Norway BJ, Norway - 20 December 2009, 4:28 am Yes Mark. Translation is not new. I'm guessing that was Tyndales argument too. Problem was that this argument is essentially based on secular profane truth. Things like history, culture, linguistics, sociology, and anthropology. And so they burnt him for theological heresy. After all there is no other source of truth right?
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Georges Houssney, Lebanese American Georges Houssney, Lebanese American - 20 December 2009, 12:47 am As I follow the discussions, there are so many opinions on both sides. But what we really need to consider is not what people think, and what opinions there are out there. Rather we need to start from the Bible and in particular the life and teachings of Jesus and St. Paul as Mr. Madany has recommended. Here is one verse I would like my friend Joseph Cumming and any insiders to respond to this biblical truth: "...if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!" II Corinthians 5:17. What is the old that is gone and what is the new that has come?
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Mark Stephan Mark Stephan - 19 December 2009, 8:42 pm Actually it is: כִּֽי־ אָמַ֣ר אֱלֹהִ֔ים לֹ֣א תֹֽאכְל֔וּ מִכֹּ֖ל עֵ֥ץ הַגָּֽן׃ I translated it for your benefit. As for language, C5 has nothing to do with translating allah/god/elohim or whatever is the appropriate term for that society. Translation wasn't an enlightenment issue, nor was it ever. The Hebrew Bible was translated to greek in the 3rd century BC, and translated into others. It isn't new. You're distracting the the discussion into something that isn't relevant. The argument is, C5, IM, COmmon Path, is Biblical and Theologically unsound.
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BJ, Norway BJ, Norway - 19 December 2009, 1:15 pm The very worst thing these enlightenment innovators did though, was to distort the creeds. They inserted a twisted definition for “catholic church”. They said it no longer means “universal church” and that because the meaning has changed they no longer needed to call themselves catholics. Some even had the nerve to name themselves “Anglicans” according to their ethnic identity. Everyone knew that these “Angles” were a violent, idolatrous people group, with an evil culture. How could anyone follow Christ and be an Anglican? They needed to come away, be separate, and call themselves Catholic.
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BJ, Norway BJ, Norway - 19 December 2009, 12:52 pm Of course, the worst part of this twisting of scripture was to use “God” to translate “'Elohiym”. How blasphemous to use a word that was derived from Hindu idolatry for the Almighty. Of course 'Elohiym will not answer the prayers prayed to “God”. How could He? Wheres the verse that says He will? Look at what the Hindus and even the Europeans have written about that name. Sure theres some good stuff, but so much of peoples theology is wrong. 'Elohiym would never listen to these people. He hates culture, it’s a man-made, and besides we don’t want Him to.
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BJ, Norway BJ, Norway - 19 December 2009, 12:34 pm “Look no further than Genesis 3:1. "Did God really say..” Mark how can you distort the scripture like that???! The true scripture says “'Ap kiy- 'aamar 'Elohiym lo'…” Surely you read each day from the original Hebrew? How can you trust one of these translations? Surely they are twisted by the evil of man-made culture and language! Yes, something VERY NEW happened during the Enlightenment: people started to translate the Bible into their own tongues. The church asked them for scriptural proof of course... and they had the nerve to appeal to sociological and anthropological arguments. They said they wanted to people to UNDERSTAND it! Such worldly thinking! Appealing to the masses like that. It was not long till those innovators banded together with an atrocious ecclesiology - they actually started to meet separately! They actually believed they had recovered the doctrines of the Church and of Salvation, and that their obvious innovations were original taught by Paul. Unthinkable!
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Joseph Cumming, USA Joseph Cumming, USA - 19 December 2009, 11:12 am Elijah Abraham, my hope is that MBBs will listen to input from the wider Body of Christ, but that the wider Body of Christ will give that input in a respectful way which does not belittle or anathematize those who seek sincerely to follow Christ. My own input to C5 MBBs (which should be clear from my article) is to challenge them to think carefully about what the Bible says about christology and ecclesiology. My input to MBBs like yourself is to encourage you to think carefully about the Fifth Commandment ("Honor your father and your mother"). Of course "honor" does not mean "uncritically obey," and there are times when one must find an honoring way to repudiate what is wrong in the inheritance from one's parents. But nonetheless we must think carefully and prayerfully about how to obey the Fifth Commandment.
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Joseph Cumming, USA Joseph Cumming, USA - 19 December 2009, 11:07 am Dear Elijah Abraham, I am sad that my article made you feel I was pressuring you to retain Muslim identity. You wrote: "I am a Christian why in the world would people like Cumming want to keep labeling me Muslim?" What I tried to do in the article was to help readers understand fairly the concerns of both sides of the debate and to defend the right of MBBs like yourself to sort out these difficult questions without being attacked or condescendingly lectured or anathematized by Christians who do not understand your context or your convictions.
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Mark Stephan Mark Stephan - 19 December 2009, 10:42 am Bravo Salaam! I hear now that the IM is trying to come up with a hermeneutical stance. Why wasn't this done first? Again, they are trying to twist the Word of God to meet their sociology. Who else twisted the Word of God? Look no further than Genesis 3:1. "Did God really say... XYZ?" Fill it in with your favorite IM, C5, Common Path, etc... weak theological statements. The St. Francis Magazine has some good debate going on. Also check out http://BiblicalMissiology.org What ever happened to Real Theologians and Real Theologically-Based Missions? Every time someone tells me God is doing a new thing, I realize it simply means people are trying to get him to do a new thing. God has stated already what he is doing in his Word. Nothing is secret. Share the gospel clearly and boldly, stumbling blocks and all, for His Glory! And God will save those He has called, and bring about His Glory! It's no more complex than that. May your ears and eyes be opened...
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Salaam Corniche, West Africa Salaam Corniche, West Africa - 19 December 2009, 10:10 am Part 2. The Latin American theologian Rene Padilla made a comment on another movement. “Its advocates have taken as their starting point a sociological observation and developed a missionary strategy; only then, a posteriori, have they made the attempt to find biblical support. As a result the Bible has not been allowed to speak.” My analysis of “Insider” use of scripture parallels Padilla’s observation. It is a methodology looking for a theology. A number of stock scriptures has been marshaled for its support, but on closer analysis, have been found wanting. Example: Don Carson’s debunking of the Insider use of I Cor 9 http://s3.amazonaws.com/tgc-video/2009-onference/plenary/Carson_session_10 > .mp3. But guess what?. Presented with data from a renowned scholar like Carson, an IM proponent responded with a “don’t bother me with the facts, my mind is made up” So much for conversation.
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Salaam Corniche, West Africa Salaam Corniche, West Africa - 19 December 2009, 9:58 am Part 1. “God is doing something new” Could this be the ultimate “conversation” shut-down? Add statements like “Jesus is the Ultimate Insider” or “if you resist this move of God among Muslims, you will be quenching the Spirit.” Give me a break. This is spiritual manipulation. The appeal of novelty is nothing new: check out Babel, the golden calf, Nadab and Abihu’s strange fire, etc. Then the Montanists (2-4th c. AD) said God was doing something new, so did the French prophets (1700’s), likewise Charles Finney (1830’s),the Toronto Blessing (1990’s), and the Territorial Spirits Movement (1990’s). All of them exhibit strangely skewed doctrines, and woe be to you if you “test the spirits.” See www.stfrancismagazine.info Aug,Oct. and Dec ‘09 issues under this author’s name. The call is for discernment.
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DANIEL GAMA, SWAZILAND DANIEL GAMA, SWAZILAND - 19 December 2009, 3:36 am I wish to have distance learning programme by your institution
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BJ, Norway BJ, Norway - 18 December 2009, 4:41 pm BTW - my daughter got her birth certificate in Amman. When the official writing it out for me got to the box labelled religion, he looked up at my blue eyes and European face and, without having to ask, wrote "christian".... ponder that
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BJ, Norway BJ, Norway - 18 December 2009, 4:31 pm Thx Kevin ;o) Mark:"I'm not certain whether what you said was in jest or not. But, being a Christian has nothing to do with eye color, ethnic background, drinking wine, birth certificate, etc." I was entirely truthful. What I want you to try and understand is that for at least my muslim friends this is EXACTLY what the word means. My bible no longer uses the word "charity" in 1 Cor 13. Not because KJV got it wrong but because language has moved on and "charity" is no longer the appropriate word. That does not mean 1 Cor 13 means something different than it did in king James day, it is purely an example of good contextualisation. This is: to communicate well you must use the symbols available within the culture that best create the intended meaning in the receivers mind. Why would I want to use a word that was not used by the early church at first (i.e. not essential to the Gospel) and that I know will promote miscommunication? Language is alive and it has moved on. Good Night!
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Mark Stephan Mark Stephan - 18 December 2009, 3:45 pm BJ, I'm not certain whether what you said was in jest or not. But, being a Christian has nothing to do with eye color, ethnic background, drinking wine, birth certificate, etc.... Nor should you take your cultural baggage and force it down anyone's throats. However, the Word of God, the Bible, is not cultural baggage. It is very clear that syncretism, idol worship, and being ashamed of aligning yourself 100% with Jesus and 100% with His Kingdom, which means not being of the World, but from His Kingdom culture as dictated by the Word of God, shine light back into the dark world, and stand for Jesus, and nothing else. If you fear persecution, how others view you, how intolerant your Bible is, then you need to re-read the word of God and know these are the things you should boast in for his glory.
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Roger D. McKinney, USA Roger D. McKinney, USA - 18 December 2009, 3:45 pm I'm surprised by the lack of civility that some poster display, but I'm more surprised that no one has mentioned the parable of the tares. (I just skimmed the posts. forgive me if I overlooked one.) The point of the parables is tolerance. Believers should not be fruit inspectors; we haven't received the gift of the Holy Spirit for that. We should not attempt to separate the wheat from the tares. Especially, we should praise God when any Muslim turns to Christ. And we should allow that convert the freedom to follow Christ as he sees fit without forcing him into our mold.
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Kevin Parker, Texas Kevin Parker, Texas - 18 December 2009, 3:27 pm Ladies and Gentlement, this conversation has been wonderful and eye opening. I thank you all for challenging my belief system and making me see things in new ways. I encourage and am praying with all of you that we may one day see the Kingdom as God does. This has been a great dialogue.
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Kevin Parker, Texas Kevin Parker, Texas - 18 December 2009, 3:18 pm BJ, you are my hero...that was hilarious!
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Bassam Michael Madany, USA Bassam Michael Madany, USA - 18 December 2009, 2:46 pm The paradigm the Insiders offer, and those defending it, indicate the shocking departure of some Protestants from the doctrines of the Church and of Salvation as recovered by Martin Luther, John Calvin, and the other Reformers of the 16th century. They all held to a high ecclesiology. And had the IM missiology been the view of St Paul and his colleagues, none of us would be having this duscussion in 2009. The NT came into being, as a God-breathed book, addressed to specific churches, and to leaders of churches. Through St John, our Lord addressed 7 Letters to the chuches in Asia Minor, and not simply to his "followers."
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BJ, Norway BJ, Norway - 18 December 2009, 2:21 pm Hey Mark, cool it old chap. “Ashamed”, “self-masocistic”, “rasist”, “insulting”… You’ve accused me of quite a few things so far. Please try to live up to the name you so proudly carry - accusing the brethren is someone else’s job habibi. Ashamed? I love being “christian”. I had a glass of wine last week, my daughter (who has a christian birth certificate) is getting confirmed this year, and last night I ate pork and danced around a christmas tree. Its wonderful! “Of course I’m a christian!” I tell my muslim friends, “just look at my blues eyes and European face. My family has been christians for 1500 years!” Nothing to hide there. And then we just get on to talk about more important matters like following Jesus and how one enters the Kingdom of God. I’m not ashamed of my empire, I just see no need to force my own cultural baggage on others or dictate to them what their cultural symbols really mean.
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Tim Snell, USA Tim Snell, USA - 18 December 2009, 12:50 pm PART ONE OF THREE Twas the month before Christmas *When all through our land,* God’s Shepherds lacked conviction* And weren’t taking a stand.* See the PC Police had taken away,* The standing for truth – for such was the day.* The pastors were told by the church not to say,* A thing about Islam or the Quranic way.* It might hurt people's feelings, other pastors have said* Let’s water down the gospel and contextualize it instead.*
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Tim Snell, USA Tim Snell, USA - 18 December 2009, 12:49 pm *Yes, let’s tell the body that Mohammad is fine* You can pray toward Mecca, with Allah as divine* So go say the Shahada, the Salat and such.* We’ll put Jesus in Islam … just not very much.* Oh, people may squawk, they may shout, they may scream.” *But they don’t understand … Love is our thing!”* “You may now remain Muslim,” our claim will be.* A syncretic blend of Islam and Christianity.* You see, God’s plan of salvation is much to demanding.* We’ll reshape the gospel to a new understanding.* We’ll quit talking of truth, this wasn’t Paul’s method. * We’ll avoid persecution, beheadings and bloodshed.*
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Tim Snell, USA Tim Snell, USA - 18 December 2009, 12:47 pm First Travis, then Mallouhi, Jesus in the Quran, and Common Ground* On BeTheirVoice, on Frontiers, on CommonPath, its all around!* Some church leaders lift their voice and they raise a mighty clatter* Others spring up to say, “Be quiet! Getting along is what matters!”* “Quit raising a fuss, you’re disturbing the peace.* If we all get along, then God’s grace can increase.” *What they don’t understand by this “Sanhedrin’s sentence” They have turned their backs on God’s truth. They’ve built a bridge over repentance.* More concerned with appearances and not rocking the boat* They’ve made place for apostasy – wrapped in a clergyman’s cloak * So God sets a plumb line among His people on this day.* Which side will you choose: Syncretism … or God’s Way?*
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Mark Stephan Mark Stephan - 18 December 2009, 10:14 am Again you are playing the game of semantics. We can distance ourselves from what politically correctness has deemed intolerant, like words of religion, christianity, etc... But the reality is, a faith system is a religion. You're ashamed because western culture has told you to be ashamed. In that no one can claim to have thee "truth." Not because the Bible has said to be ashamed, rather it has said instead to boast and be persecuted for it! 1 Peter 4:16. Look at Turkey, before Christian meant a spy. But because of the powerful testimony of CMBs, Christian is now being redefined, bit by bit and truth is being revealed. "Hıristiyaniyim!" is now a proud declaration by Turkish Christians, and praise God for it! The leaders of the Turkish church see C5, IM, Common Word/Ground as utter blasphemy!
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Mark Stephan Mark Stephan - 18 December 2009, 10:06 am BJ, The term 'Christian' was used by the early church way before Constantine, so I don't know what you're going on there about. And again you are creating a bias against the West, when really there are more Christians out of the west than in, and they call themselves Christians. You yourself have created your own prejudice. Again you are creating this self-masocistic anti-colonial diatribe when there isn't western colonialism anymore. You obviously are ashamed of something and for that I am sorry. But myself, and hundreds of millions of Spirit-Filled Christians are proud to be tied with the name of Jesus. And where someone doesn't understand what Christian means, we educate them, and they understand. I've never seen them not understand.
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BJ, Norway BJ, Norway - 18 December 2009, 9:39 am "I am not talking about the religion of Christianity, but a personal relationship with the Savior." Sigh... Elijah that's exactly what I mean. You are separating between internal ("relationship") and external ("religion of Christianity"). I agree. Since a Christian is an adherent of the religion of Christianity, and many of these adherents do not have this personal relationship, it seems unnecessary and confusing to add the following clause to the Gospel message: "You must call yourself Christian" - especially since the first believers got along fine without this label for many years and Constantine later hijacked it to consolidate his empire. Some Americans have further sullied this word by calling for crusades or draping their national flag over their churches/pulpits . Is it any wonder some find the word a symbol of an external empire cult and nothing to do with internal faith? Why should a word that has been distorted by the West keep people out of the kingdom?
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Biblical Missiology & Evangelical Islamic Studies Society Biblical Missiology & Evangelical Islamic Studies Society - 18 December 2009, 9:24 am Please check out our site for interesting articles on our blog, and great papers and videos critical of the Insider Movement, C5, and Common Ground & Word on our resource page. http://biblicalmissiology.org Some excellent blog articles in process about this very subject by Christians from a Muslim Background (CMBs).
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Elijah Abraham, USA Elijah Abraham, USA - 18 December 2009, 8:40 am When Christ saved me from Islam I knew immediately what the cost would be. Yet, I knew that Christ demand carrying our cross and follow him or we are not worthy of HIM. Any Muslim who is not willing to pay the price is not ready yet. The missionary must explain the cost of being a disciple of Christ before leading him to salvation. So, for me to be a Christian is not what the world defines the term, it is what the Bible defines is. That is to be Christ like before man. If people who I encounter have a different worldview of being a Christian, then it is my role to correct his worldview as a way to share the Gospel with him. Again, I am not talking about the religion of Christianity, but a personal relationship with the Savior. George & Mike, I agree with you both.
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BJ, Norway BJ, Norway - 18 December 2009, 8:34 am Most of the problem here is linked to our definition of “religion”. One group takes a “Modern” view saying it is something INTERNAL, the deepest core of identity. Thus, you can have hyphenated (or dual) national, ethic, or cultural identities but religious identity must be singular (cf Tennent, Griffiths). The other group are using a newer “Post-Modern” definition that sees religion as the EXTERNAL culture, traditions and symbols that form the symbolic “vocabulary” out of which one expresses oneself (cf Geertz, Lindbeck, Kraft etc…) This in turn affects what Christian means. So, since our presuppositions are so radically different it is no wonder there is so much misunderstanding when we start to talk about delicate areas of contextualisation.
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Mark Stephan Mark Stephan - 18 December 2009, 8:25 am Apology accepted BJ, however, as much as Christian means something else in ME, Muslim also means something else. Muslim is not a term a believer in Jesus Christ can use. It's deceptive, and tied to idolatry. Ivensdad & BJ, you both are saying because perception is wrong, we should change what we say. Problem is, perception is always going to be wrong. Part of what we as Christians do is bring light and the truth. The term 'Christian' isn't used a lot in the Bible, but where it is, it is anti-cultural and filled with negative social stigmas, yet the Bible says to cherish term, 1 Peter 4:16 (ESV) "Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name." We are to glorify in that Name despite what the world says. We are not to be ashamed.
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BJ, Norway BJ, Norway - 18 December 2009, 8:08 am Sorry you misunderstood my comment Mark. No offence or insult intended. My point is that a word means what it means to the people we are reaching, and that our personal fondness of certain labels we’ve claimed for ourselves as followers of Isa is irrelevant. Since this is the case we need to understand that the term “christian” in the ME is much more related to cultural, and yes, ethnic inheritance. Sorry if the black/white analogy is upsetting to you - I was just trying to give people a feel for the cultural-ethnic loading the label “christian" carries in the ME. Its normally a surprise for westerners to discover that 99.9% of evangelicals in the ME have “christian” written on their birth certificates.
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Ivensdad S, Tajikistan Ivensdad S, Tajikistan - 18 December 2009, 7:40 am Mark Stephan, there are too many Christians do not follow Jesus. So, Christianity doesn't mean follow Jesus. Christianity was built about 300 years after Jesus by Greek background believers + Constantine. Yes, I do agree that born again is the conditions to enter the Kingdom, but it doesn't mean to become a Christian. Also I do agree that we must leave idolatry and hypocrisy. About the Samaritan woman, that is the fact! You can't deny the bible to support your argument.
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Mark Stephan Mark Stephan - 18 December 2009, 7:32 am BJ, if you're going to make racist comments, show evidence. As is, your comments are demeaning & insulting to those of us who do care for the souls of the lost. Whether Pro-C5 or Anti-C5, the posters here have spent substantial time in other cultures living in that culture and respecting that culture. We work hard to remove our own worldview and take on Christ, & His Kingdom Culture. Before you defame the Bride of Christ, I'd urge you to show evidence. If there is, then we can confront that Biblically. Finally, Acts 10 was about sharing the gospel to non-Jews. It is not about redeeming culture. At no point does God say souls & culture are tied together. Show me the clear & definitive biblical verses, I have been searching for them for a long time. All I can see biblically is that people are souls. They just happen to have bodies, & culture filled with depravity. In heaven those things will be transformed to holy heavenly bodies & His Holy Culture.
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BJ, Norway BJ, Norway - 18 December 2009, 5:57 am Stringer: "In the Arab world, the churches are totally against it, and also the many Muslims who turn to Christ, want to LEAVE Islam." Reason #2: Unfortunately many “converts”still carry with them the mindset of “deen wa dawla” that sees religion as a complete package covering all areas of life. It is entirely natural for them to project this paradigm into their new faith since renewal of the mind takes time. However, it is sad that good-hearted but ethnocentric christians often encourage their disciples to have this “Islamic” worldview. The message of Acts 10 is so counter-intuitive many still can’t grasp it: Following Christ does not require ditching ones ethnic and social-religious identity – these things are to be transformed!
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BJ, Norway BJ, Norway - 18 December 2009, 5:43 am Stringer: "In the Arab world, the churches are totally against it, and also the many Muslims who turn to Christ, want to LEAVE Islam." Reason #1: With reasonable success, both you and I could pick out ethnic-christians in the streets of Cairo, Amman, Damascus based on physical features. This is not just about religious & cultural identity. Ethnicity comes into it too. What “christian” means to westerners is irrelevant. In the ME it is a ethnically inherited identity and as such it is written on the birth certificate. Swapping these ethnic indicators muslim and christian for terms we are more politically sensitive to: Of COURSE the small white minority requires the barbaric blacks to assimilate to their superior culture.
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Georges Houssney, American Lebanese Georges Houssney, American Lebanese - 18 December 2009, 12:22 am Islamic Culture? What is that? If you can define Christian culture, then you can define Islamic culture. Only then are we comparing apples with apples. I have read in missiological literature statements emphatically denying that there is a Christian culture. Yet the same authors speak of contextualizing into Islamic culture. There are 56 countries with a Muslim majority and each has many subcultural groups. It is naive to lump all Muslims into one culture. Anyway, praying in a mosque rather than church is not a cultural act. It is religious. Denying that Jesus is the Son of God is not cultural it is theological. If culture is the sum total of a group’s lifestyle, values and beliefs can we as Christians endorse the whole package? Visit http://www.engagingislam.org.
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Doug Matthews, Australia Doug Matthews, Australia - 17 December 2009, 11:04 pm E. Abraham USA I agree with all your Thoughts on this as I was a Roman Catholic and I tried to mix with my old Parish until I realised that I was still tied to a works oriented FAITH.
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Mark Stephan Mark Stephan - 17 December 2009, 10:47 pm Ivensdad, I hate to tell you this, but Christianity means the ones who follow Christ. If you truly follow Christ, you are indeed, a Christian. And yes Jesus did speak against idolaters, Pharisees, Judaisers, etc... Jesus said you could not be part of the Kingdom of God unless you were born again. Transformed. Changed. You cannot be changed, unless you change. Secondly, you keep repeating the samaritan woman story. Jesus made clear he came for the Children of Israel and not others (Matt 15:26-28). It would later be the disciples who would be sent out to reach the others, and they certainly spoke against idolatry and Judaisers. All of Corinthians 1&2 is about the syncretism issues the Corinthian church was having, idolatry, sacrifice, etc.... This is no different than Christians from a Muslim background (CMB). They must reject anything from their past that is tied to false religion, idolatry. Otherwise that is demon worship (1 Corinthians 10:18-28).
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Noe, Peru Noe, Peru - 17 December 2009, 10:41 pm I want to throw some question to think and check out for yourselves. Where in Jesus's teaching does He say, come to be christian? Instead he said, come and follow me or be my disciples. If muslims want to follow Jesus and practice his teching, they don't need to convert to the religion of christianity, because it is not even mentioned by Jesus. so Why do muslims have to convert to be christian instead of just following Jesus and obeying where they are at?
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Ivensdad S, Tajjikistan Ivensdad S, Tajjikistan - 17 December 2009, 10:24 pm Elijah Abraham, Christianity is not found by Jesus....So we don't have to follow Christianity, but to follow Jesus. Jesus never asked anyone to change his/her religion. He didn't ask the Samaritan woman to change her religion, he also didn't order Matthew to step away of Judaism. His order is repent...
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Elijah Abraham, USA Elijah Abraham, USA - 17 December 2009, 2:42 pm As I real Paul's writing as the C5/IM advocates use for these methods, I do not see that Paul ever contextualized the Scripture. He did however contextualized himself and the culture. But never the Gospel. The Word of God is powerful and we as workers must get out of God's business and stick to witnessing and discipling converts. The worker's role is to be a discipler not an expert in Islamic culture to tell the convert how to live in his own community now he is a convert.









